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Technical => Exteriors and Interiors => Topic started by: able on December 03, 2008, 01:48:58 PM

Title: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 03, 2008, 01:48:58 PM
g'day can some of you in the know fellas offer some advice on these topics?

compressor.  will this one do?  (scorpion) 2hp belt driven, 50L tank, 185L/min (filter and reg on board)

spray gun. how many mm? 1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0 ?  (will be painting in acrylic)

paint. how much of everything will i need (and how many coats of everything do you recommend)

paint color. im sort of fond of the high gloss black, what problems come along with using black? and if its straight black and then gloss i take it i will have no problems with touch ups because i didn't use a pearl? and is their advice on how to get a really "mirror" gloss?

 
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: doofhard on December 03, 2008, 01:55:46 PM
3 problems I know of with black, 1 -  it shows up every inperfection and 2 - it gets very hot so in summer could get very warm inside and 3 - gets dirty real easy
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: TOOLKING on December 03, 2008, 03:03:53 PM
the compressor is fine to run a spray gun.
benerally the bigger the tank the better with painting as it means you can get longer runs with the gun.2.5hp is the min I would use for the motor and by the sound of it it would be direct drive

the other problem with black is it needs to be good paint and painted well, you see a lot of black re-paints on older cars that look great for 2years and then fade to crap
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: TOOLKING on December 03, 2008, 03:10:45 PM
Ive just had a look at the compressor you are talking about it will be fine. with the 2hp motor
generally you if you were using it all the time for spraying the 2.5 is better
(the motor does not need towork as hard)
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 03, 2008, 03:39:34 PM
its the xr1355 i was looking. yer sorry its a 2.5 hp.

not from this store but only pic i could find with the time i have at the moment..
www.coletoolcentre.com.au/scorpion-comp/scorpc3.JPG
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: ben on December 03, 2008, 04:23:31 PM
ill tell you whats wrong with black! you get labeled a terrorist.. and people think your gunna rob their grandma.. other than that its fantastic!!
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: strez on December 03, 2008, 04:24:09 PM
compressor should be ok but your hose set up might need some modification  .the air in the compressor tank can get quite warm and water vapor will condense as it cools if the water trap is to close to the tank the vapor will pass straight through and condense in the air line after the trap and come out the spraygun as water . so unless your using water based paint you need to run a length of hose befor your regulator/watertrap to give water vapor in your compressed air time to cool and liquify . the best solution is to get some copper pipe and coil it in a bucket of water and run that befor your water trap . if your still getting water condensation put some ice in the bucket

spraygun from memory should be a 1.8mm gravity feed or 2.0mm suction feed but best double check with your paint supplier but should also say on the paint tin recomended spraygun

paint its alittle hard to say but 4lt of coulor would be a good start if your doing a whole van
primer are you priming the whole thing ? are you patch priming ? how well is the bog finished off ?

paint color a couple of things to do with black and reds is to clear coat them this gives them a bit extra protection and makes them look better. another thing is to keap it polished this helps by protecting the paint from oxadizing that results in that fadded white chalky look .the reson black and reds tend the weather more than white is tha black gets hot and accelerates oxadization and reds usualy have lead in them that oxadizes quite easily .by clearing them you seal of the air and clears usually have uv barriers kinda like suncream that helps protect paint .polish does too

getting that mirror finish . some show cars still get painted in acrylic because they are easier to buff . once you`ve painted your van and its dry about a week sand all the parts you want a mirror finish on with 1200-2000 wet and dry with water . then get a lambs wool buff pad and suitable cutting compound and buff your little heart out. word of warning this step will take way longer than painting but you will end up with a perfectly flat(no orange peal) glossy finish . just make sure not to buff through edges and make sure you put enough clear on alittle extra wont hurt as you will sand some of it off

hope that helps
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: strez on December 03, 2008, 05:44:01 PM
one more thing if you decide to paint your van black a bit of time and efort will be needed to be spent getting it straight . and while top coating it in acrylic is fine don`t prime it in acrylic use two pack for a few resons it`s not poreous so if you van sits around in primer for awhile its less likely to start rusting it also chemically hardens witch means when you paint over it it wont soften and move (acrylic primer only solvent evaporates - the thinners drys . when you paint over it some of the thinners is absorbed back in to it becomes soft and can move leaving sinkback although if you rub and buff you can get these out)
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 03, 2008, 06:22:35 PM
all good info! thanks all!

i think by the sounds of it i will drop the black color... with no windows and fitting seats for the kids, i don't want to cook them.

second down the list is a very odd green i see on some of the new car... now i will have to search for the color code.

ill buy the compressor a.s.a.p but the gun after the paint ;)

and yes im stripping the car and will need to paint the inside.. i will be carpeting the lower half and floor in the back so it does not have to be in the car color but will have to be sealed in something. (maybe sound deadened under the carpet as well?)

P.S if i do not get it all at the start my miss's will (how do we put this nicely) LEACH back the funds and buy a assortment of non shed/car specific trinkets.
im sure a few of you know what i mean..... (no offense to the ladies)  ;)
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: ben on December 03, 2008, 06:23:19 PM
hey strez ive got to primer marias van before i give it back to her.. ive got acrylic undercoat here should i not use that and go buy some 2 pac undercoat? we want to keep her options open for painting later on when she gets to that.. cheers

ben
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: BusyKiwi on December 03, 2008, 06:41:08 PM
don't forget etch primer for bare metal and even bog patches before primer

The straight and black thing is kind of true, white actually shows up more ripples though. Any gloss colour with show up wobbles.

useless information:

base coats are always good for a glossy finish

All colours fade, no matter what you do it in, in a year or so it wont match the left overs you have.

there are more variations of white than any other colour

black and white aren't technically colours, they are shades
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 03, 2008, 07:22:09 PM
etch primer is that thin dust coat that you put on the bare metal for the primer to stick to yes? this like a mist but you can make out the metal still? put on as soon as the grease and oil remover rub down?

is it better to strip the old paint in stages or make sure you have a few days and strip the entire car and fix everything at ones and get it sealed? i see some seem to work on a area then coat it back up and do the area next to it and repeat all the way around the car?

where does the rust converter fit into the method? is it a all over treatment or only for the actual rusty areas?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: strez on December 03, 2008, 09:54:16 PM
hey strez ive got to primer marias van before i give it back to her.. ive got acrylic undercoat here should i not use that and go buy some 2 pac undercoat? we want to keep her options open for painting later on when she gets to that.. cheers

ben
i`d get some 2pack specialy if it might stay that way for a while

rust convertor is for rust . metal prep is all over treatment althought i`m not sold on that method i prefer redbrown etch or even epoxy etch over freshly sanded metal . most people do it in patches as one section could end up takin longer than expected
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 03, 2008, 11:11:00 PM
i always thought 2pac was a booth only deal?

what are the benefits/price differences and how much more would i have to spend on protective gear? 
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: ben on December 04, 2008, 07:10:01 AM
hey strez can you paint 2 pac over acrylic top coat paint? or does it need to be sanded back?

cheers
ben
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: strez on December 04, 2008, 04:36:45 PM
you don`t need a booth to paint two pack but overspray is a problem make sure you use a carbon filter in your resperator . panel shops use spray booths to contain overspray reduce conamination by dust and most have a bake cycle in them so a paint job can be cooked at 60 degrees , dry and hard ready to put back together in 1/2 an hour instead of 6 to 12 hours

2 pack will go over old acrylic but not so good over fresh acrylic or enamel
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 04, 2008, 08:56:10 PM
i went to do some pricing today... of the final color i have chosen one store said i would never get it in acrylic but they could sell me it in 2 pack.

one shop can match it in acrylic but i noticed a huge differences in amounts they think i need.

one thought i should be right with six litres of color and four of clear...acrylic

and another said i would be right with four litres of color and two of clear...acrylic

i told both that its a bedford swb van and it will need to cover the entire out side and inside the cab and the top half of the back at three coats color and three to four of clear.

one was trying to sell me twenty litres of thinners and the other said i will be right with four???????

even the "pro's" cant agree.... seems alot of differences of opinion to me...

i was thinking from memory it would be the six color with four clear and twenty thinners... i remember long ago bringing a zh fairlane all the way to ready for painting and that is what the painter asked for... he originally asked for four litres color but sent me down for two more...

any tricks/problems with dark green metallic?

p.s i never new acrylic clear needed hardener???

 
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bullstik on December 04, 2008, 10:18:15 PM
i;ve found that one litre of undercoat can do my whole van once over on the outside and its a long wheel base  :o
so I got four litres of undercoat filler, one liter of hardener and one litre of thinners. I do the same with the top coat also
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: strez on December 05, 2008, 06:26:09 AM
6lt of color and 4 of clear should do it, you`ll only need two coats of thin clear on the inside and no acrylic clear i know of has hardener maybe he`s thinking of acrylic enamal which is another name for 2 pack . you`ll need about 5 lt of thinners to spray and some more to cleen up spray gun so aim for 8 lt but check on price could be cheaper in 20lt
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: BusyKiwi on December 05, 2008, 06:32:05 AM
base it on 2 to 1 - 2 part thinners, 1 part paint

inside and out I'd say a minimum of 6L paint, you don't need to clear inside so 2L clear

painting metallics is an art, normal paint can just be painted, metallics needs very even coats with minimal overlapping or the outcome will be patchy
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 05, 2008, 11:37:40 AM
thanks guys! all valuable information!

 
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on December 11, 2008, 11:37:39 AM
just poking my nose in too...

you can usually use some 2k hardener with acrylic clear to give it a glossier finish if you aren't a fantastic painter...
that may be what the paint store told you... you can also use it with a direct gloss top coat acrylic for the same reason.
(but im also guessing it may not work with all brands of paint)

also just to be clear "undercoat" is a fairly unspecific term, so you need to know what to use depending on the job:

-etch primer is purely for metal adhesion, can be used on bare metal

-primer surfacer is used to purely cover all the old paint, new metal, bog etc to get a consistant surface... generally most surfacers nowdays can be used on metal without the etch primer.

-primer filler is then used with a couple of fairly thick coats to fill up all the scratches and small imperfections, then rubbed back smooth.
(not to be confused with spray putty)

-then your top coats get whacked on.

using just a 2k primer filler and rubbing it back will make sure you get nice looking top coats even if your not a very good painter.
don't try and use a 2k clear or base coat in your back shed. its harder to spray, and it will take so long to dry that you will have a million buts of dust and bugs and all sorts of shit in the paint.

the thinners ratio depends on the paint brand and also the temperature and humidity at the time. don't just take someones word for it because the've sprayed their car before and that's what they mixed. they may have used different paint. use the recomended amount from the manufacturer....

anyway thats my 2c worth...
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 11, 2008, 10:03:30 PM
so just go the normal acrylic for color but use the hardener they are recommending in the clear? or try and get both in normal acrylic?

and thank you for your 2 cents!
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 16, 2008, 10:24:13 PM
i was advised to take back to bare metal only in places with bad crows feet...
and to leave paint on where it is still ok.. (sanded ofcourse)
this how you fellas would do it or would you go back to bare metal?


and do you hang doors back on after they are repaired and in undercoat so they are lined up perfectly and color and clear in place like in this youtube?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAixtZ-FCD8

or do you paint them off and risk your fresh new paint work when you re hang them?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on December 17, 2008, 02:55:25 PM
you should paint the inside of your door/bonnet jambs and doors off the car, then put them on, line them up, then paint the hinge bolts to cover any scratches on the bolts with the doors open, then paint the whole external car with the doors / bonnet closed.

you could paint the seperately but theres no need. your not only risking scratching something putting doors back on, but your also risking
slight colour differences in the panels if you aren't a pro painter..
so for a beginner i would definitely recommend painting this way.

taking back to bare metal is usually an absolute killer job, and you never know what you will find underneath... if you are building a $$$$$$ showcar, then strip to bare metal, but if you are just making a tidy street car, don't bother... alot of people have the idea in their head that if they can tell someone it had a "bare metal respray" it means the car is done well, and that they are some kind of hero... you could do a bare metal respray in 4 hours if you really wanted too. and it would look like shit because every tiny little dent or speck or scratch from the last 40 years of the cars life that have been covered up will reappear. So you are left with a huge panel job on your hands, so the car never gets finished, and you sell it for $100 on ebay as a shell with a box of parts, when it used to be a cool car....

Having said that, I just started stripping my camaro back 2 days ago, and its getting the bare metal job because i never take my own advice. and so far i have found i really need 2 new doors and two new guards, but since they cost an absolute fortune over here im going to have to repair these... once again its not a show car, just a street cruiser so i should have just rubbed it back and sprayed it and kept my sander out of there.
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on December 17, 2008, 02:56:26 PM
actually what colour are you painting your van?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 17, 2008, 06:22:35 PM
thanx bren for the reply, i thought that seemed the sensible way to do it.

here is my color, the pic does not do it justice as their is alot of gold in it...
after i chose it they where half way through mixing it and had to stop as it need two litres of the gold in it and its a tint.... it had to be ordered as the tints usually last them forever with a squirt here and a squirt there....

(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=6510&g2_serialNumber=2)

where the sun catches it it looks gold and remains green in the shadows. (i love green)

the picture really does not do it justice at all...
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Dave on December 17, 2008, 07:20:32 PM
Love the colour
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 17, 2008, 09:08:46 PM
dulon 1k

paint code 0016b $250 @ 4 lt

and i cant wait to see the beddy in it!
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Tweaker on December 17, 2008, 09:30:37 PM
dulon 1k

paint code 0016b $250 @ 4 lt

and i cant wait to see the beddy in it!

Neither can I! ;D
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on December 18, 2008, 02:45:04 PM
i cant see a colour? is there a pic supposed to be there?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on December 18, 2008, 04:57:08 PM
Here it is...

(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=6510&g2_serialNumber=2)
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Tweaker on December 18, 2008, 05:02:56 PM
Not me, the green looks tops! ;D
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Jock on December 25, 2008, 08:45:16 PM
Able,

That colour looks the goods mate - can't wait to see the finished product!

Jock
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on January 05, 2009, 12:29:35 PM
colour looks good.. is that a flake?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Marishka on January 05, 2009, 12:35:34 PM
cool colour, i like it,
1k? is that acrilic?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on January 05, 2009, 07:17:03 PM
yep, acrilic... i was advised that 2 pac is not for the beginner in the garage..

sorry i been bizy few days protesting and burning dvd to hand to people...

i get a little upset with illegal wars...
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Marishka on January 05, 2009, 08:39:32 PM
2k is ok, but u gota have a dust free enviroment and be carefull of runs.
i wouldnt use anything else now, but i  never put 2k over acrilic unless its like really old acrilic.
it will look great when ur finished.
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on January 08, 2009, 02:56:04 PM
although runs are much easier to get rid of if your spraying in 2 pack...
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: doofhard on January 08, 2009, 02:58:10 PM
Why is that?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Marishka on January 09, 2009, 09:35:17 PM
although runs are much easier to get rid of if your spraying in 2 pack...

how do u get rid of em Bren
razor scape then buff?
sand n buff?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on January 13, 2009, 02:25:02 PM
definitely not that way :)

you can just sand them back using wet+dry and a block and then buff it.
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: strez on January 13, 2009, 10:14:06 PM
use a titanium block  ;)
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Marishka on January 14, 2009, 05:03:43 PM
dont forget the criptonite paper ;D
razor scape, wet1000 n buff  has been the easiest ive ever used.
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on February 11, 2009, 06:30:40 PM
hello people im back.... hope you all had a lovely xmass/newyear and perhaps a holiday.

i had a break over the holidays. back into it now but i had to sand the surface rust off  ;)
one question, i have started to lay down the undercoat (one section at a time as i fix small repairs) and i noticed in places it stands out a bit like sand or powder but is flat in others?

i know you have to sand the entire car before putting the color on but i was just wondering if its my technique that is causing the powder effect or is that just how primer looks before a wet sand and im just a big fat noob?

 
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: BusyKiwi on February 11, 2009, 06:39:54 PM
sounds like overspray - either paint mixed to thick or to thin - thick = big dust, thin = little dust
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on February 11, 2009, 06:45:20 PM
its a primer/filler

1-1 for primer
1-3/4 for filler

i went 1-1, 200ml undercoat and 200ml thinners.
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: BusyKiwi on February 12, 2009, 06:22:40 AM
what air pressure you using? and is your gun a high or low pressure spray gun?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on February 12, 2009, 09:53:56 AM
yeah sounds like your gun isn't setup properly...
just play with it while painting on a scrap piece and you should be able to dial it in that way....
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on February 16, 2009, 10:00:54 AM
i painted a new panel and added a bit more thinners and i also payed more attention to gun distance and this panel came out smooth as a babies bum...

i think i was to far away from the panel and the paint was drying before they hit the metal...

i forgot to watch the gun and not the car ::)

Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on February 16, 2009, 10:42:55 AM
yep that would cause the dry chalkyness...
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on February 16, 2009, 03:50:43 PM
after sanding back areas to put a skim of bog you would just spray primer and not worry about etch over the bog?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: able on February 17, 2009, 10:48:01 AM
i was wondering what you do with the doors when it comes time to paint the entire car in color?

if you prepare the doors by undercoating the out side and coloring the inside and then you hang them then how do you paint the inside of the door frame?

do you have to open and close the doors during painting?

could someone please out line the process?
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on February 17, 2009, 12:53:25 PM
the easy process is this:

1- prime+prepare all panels ready for the final top coat, you should can leave the very last wet sand and do it a bit later.

2- paint inside doors / bonnet / around guard edges / fuel filler etc on the body...

3- paint the inner door parts off the body

4- hang the doors, line them up, then paint the bolts used and touch up any scratches etc..

5 - you may want to do a final sand of the car here now that the doors are hung.

6- paint the whole outer car at once with doors etc on

-and NEVER open/close the doors during painting...

-and etch is not useful on bog, so just primer/filler on top is the go....




Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Dano on February 17, 2009, 01:21:24 PM
show us some photos Able, alot of people could learn from this thread ;),more to the point hangin  to see some photo's.
Bren, had any second thoughts about keepin/finishing ur van, WA needs more good Beddies.
Title: Re: painting and equipment advice needed.
Post by: Bren on February 17, 2009, 02:39:51 PM
thats why someone should buy it and finish it :)
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