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Technical => Exteriors and Interiors => Topic started by: able on February 06, 2010, 11:01:46 AM

Title: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 06, 2010, 11:01:46 AM
has anyone got a full run down of attaching flare kits with pics in their gallery? particularly the glassed on method.

or can someone who could be bothered run through the process including the product names of adhesives and the pro's and con's of different glassed on methods?

Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Bas NZ on February 06, 2010, 06:18:43 PM
Ok Able, will get back to you tomorrow with the run down of the right way to do it.  Bas
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 07, 2010, 01:42:20 AM
thanks bas!

Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: cfjeff on February 07, 2010, 10:55:42 AM
There are some pics in my gallery of mine being glassed on, heve a look and ask all the questions you like.

hope this helps
Cheers Jeff
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 07, 2010, 11:30:46 AM
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13687&g2_serialNumber=1)

did you use a product to adhere cfjeff or did you just use straight fiberglass?

i have heard of people laying down a bed of epoxy on the metal to give the fiber glass something to attach too and i have also heard of super strong specialty products used to virtually glue the flare to the metal and then you just use common products to fill the gap and smooth out.

anyone aware of what this super strong product is so i can go get me a can?

 
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Bas NZ on February 08, 2010, 06:31:22 PM
Sorry Able, will get it online tomorrow for sure, to much work at the moment, what jeff has is the old way of doing it, if you get the mixture right and the cure time right your sweet, if not you have big trouble down the road. The new way does not use matting at all but does use a epoxy resin and micofibres to form a paste, you can get this from Fibreglass International in OZ, will give you the fill rundown later. This is the supper stron stuff, but you use two different grade fibres when you do the job. But you do use Epoxy not Polyester as the wax content is to high, that is not to say Epoxy doesen't have wax it does, but it does not come to the surface.

Cheers Bas
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 08, 2010, 08:54:37 PM
no worries bas. ben was telling me today to ask you for advice on your method.

i hope the young fella is ok.
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: cfjeff on February 08, 2010, 09:14:58 PM
Gidday
 The fibreglass flare is pk screwed to the inside of the of the wheel arch, the steel of the van is roughed up with a 24 grit sanding disc in the grinder. Next a mixture of polyester resin is mixed up and  a layer brushed onto the flare and steel. Strips of fibreglass matting are cut and applied across  the body and flare. Then the brush is dipped in the resin and applied to the matting. Now most boat shops will tell you to brush it on, all this does is distort the matting, instead use a stapping action to force resin through the matting. Continue to do so until the matting changes colour to the same as the resin, then apply the next strip of matting in the same manner. The advantage of the stabbing motion is to remove all air bubles. You can continue and place more layers over the top until the desired buildup or shape is achieved. Once the resin has set hard it can be sanded (never run your hand over though sharp blades of glass hurt). Then we just put a layer of newtec bog over the top and finished off with normal bog.

 As Baz said this is I understand the old method of doing it but it has been on the van since being shown this method in 2005 and not a single crack or reaction yet. I too would be interested in knowing the new method of applying fibreglass flares.

Hope this helps you with yours
cheers Jeff

Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 08, 2010, 09:31:42 PM
thanks jeff. yes it will be very interesting to see this new method. also mezzmo stated that the professional that attached his kit grabbed a flare and lifted the beddy a few inches to show how strong the adhesive was.

wish you could find out that method/product mezz? hint hint  :D







Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: cfjeff on February 08, 2010, 09:39:47 PM
Yep I grabbed mine the next day when the resin had gone off and wobbled the whole van as a test of strength, coz I'd rather find out before I painted the van if it would crack or not. It didn't and hasn't yet so I'm happy.

Cheers Jeff
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Bas NZ on February 10, 2010, 06:33:18 PM
Sorry Able it took me so long to get back to you, ok there is two ways to glass flares on to your van.

1/  this is as Jeff has done here in his picture, grind the guard back to bare metal , lay glass onto the bare metal around 6oz of matting using polyester resin, screw / pot rivet the flare on, wait for glass to harden, then grind out side of flair and place another layer of glass over the top, around 3oz of matting, let it dry thensand up and fill with filler. Ok, for this to work you need to pay attention to your mixing of the resin and hardener, if the resin goes off to quick and heats up, this will draw the wax out of the resin and it will sit between the metal guard and flare thus making the bond very weak, and will crack over time. So in a nut shell this way works fine if you get it right......... and yes jeff this is the old way and is a good way, Garry (Sundowner) on Buga did this to his well known van Windsong and was told had no probs at all.
Part 2 to follow as not sure on nuber of words allowed per post...........
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Bas NZ on February 10, 2010, 06:35:42 PM
2/ This way involves no glass matting at all, you get epoxy resin mix with the harder and then mix it with micro fibre (adhesive filler) there are different grades of this powder from maximum adhesive to fairing and sanding, of course you use the max-adhesive. You then spread this over the bare metal guard and then place the flare on top of it and screw or pot rivet it down, allow to harden then grind the outside of the flare up and apply another lay over the top, apply as much as possible to form the shape needed thus giving it more strength, sand and apply a filler over the top to finish off. In both cases it is best to pre fit the flare on the guard and drill the holes etc so it is easy to reline up, also it is a good idea to leave the screws or rivets in and just grind the top a little before you glass over the top or use the max-adhesive filler, do not use normal filler to cover the screws as they will only come though in time.
One other step that can be taken to help bond it to the metal guard is to drill the odd hole in the guard so the glass or adhesive filler can spread though the hole and make it even hold better, as most vans have a double skin you can't see this so there's no problems.

If you need the code names for the adhesive filler let me know as I'm sure Fibre Glass International has it in Aussie. This is only my point of view from the many years doing this and it is not to say this is the only way or the best way, but has proven itself  over time.
This flare was put on using the max-adhevise way, the van droped of the jack when I had the front end out and landed on the back edge of the flare as it hangs down below the body line, took the whole weight of the van and didn't even crack........
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: hotrod on February 10, 2010, 07:40:57 PM
is this  it
hope this works!
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 10, 2010, 08:12:02 PM
ok sounds the go.

just a bit unsure on this part

Quote
then grind the outside of the flare up and apply another lay over the top

could you explain this in another way so my inexperienced brain can grasp it  ;D
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Bas NZ on February 11, 2010, 06:55:30 AM
Hotrod, sorry that is not it, will explain again later, will give product numbers / codes used by Nuplex. Ok Able what this means it to sand / grind the top of the flear so that the second layer of adhesive can be applied, if this wasen't done the adhesive filler would not bond at full strength. Will post again tonight, this is very straight forward. Cheers, will check Nuplex site in NZ for details on this Product. Ben approched Fibreglass Internationl in regards to bonding fibreglass to metal and was told to use Epoxy resin, so he phoned me and got the run down on the above way.
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Sundownernz on February 12, 2010, 05:24:12 PM
Hi all,

As Bas said epoxy is the way to go nowdays. You can almost guarantee a good bond to metal with epoxy but you have to get it just right with polyester.

As Baz said, I did the flares and spoilers etc on Windsong with polyester (the old way as when I did it (late 70's) it was the only way) and it worked fine so I guess I got it right. I ground the steel body around the guard first and roughed up the face on the flare that fits to the body. Then sandwiched a layer of resin soaked glass mat between the flare and the body and used pk screws (pre drilled) to screw it to the van. Cover the screw threads in resin before you screw them in. The flares I had screwed in from underneath and this mating face on the flare was the same shape as the reverse lip around the wheel arch of the guard. Don't know if they're still like this but assume they are. Leave the screws in and just paint over them when finished, or cover the whole underside of the wheel well with underseal as I did to cut down the road noise.

Once this glass has cured, grind off the outside and rough up the outside of the flare and lay several layers of resin soaked matt over the flare and body covering the join. Work it in with a brush or glass roller making sure all gaps between the flare and body are filled with resin and/or glass matt and no air bubbles exist. Once this has cured grind the surface up smooth and bog over with your favorite goo. Sand up and your done.

This method works well if done right and is plenty strong. It worked on Windsong and works on Jeffs van. The only difference between Jeffs and mine is that I added glass matt between the flare and body, not just resin. Don't just screw the flare to the guard without adding anything or you're asking for trouble.

Cheers,
Garry.
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 23, 2010, 12:44:24 PM
i went down to martini fiber glass (geelong) today as a few friends say they are the cheapest and most reliable...

they have two products they recommend... basically they are the same product but two different brands.

techniglue and epoxy adhesion kit.

its a two part product that comes out like a paste/cream once you mix it together... apparently you have to be very precise with the mixture.

Quote
A thixotropic pre-filled epoxy gel, Techniglue Construction Adhesive cures at room temperature to form high strength structural and waterproof bonds. Techniglue has a unique consistency perfect for filling any surface voids within the bonded joint and minimising run-out.

Techniglue has proven properties and is commonly engineered into civil construction for anchoring threaded rods, mechanical fastenings and laminated timber beams. Techniglue is also favoured by woodworkers, commercial joiners and construction crews for its reliability, ease of use and capability to produce high strength bonds on almost any surface. Techniglue is a 2:1 product and must be mixed accordingly.

they also recommended the matting and resin over the top once the glue has set.

this sounds like what mezzmos installer used???

anyone heard of or used this product?
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: ben on February 23, 2010, 07:28:24 PM
how much it cost able??
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on February 24, 2010, 12:29:38 AM
one brand is $69 and the other is $76.

that's for the 1.5 kilo tin.

Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on March 11, 2010, 04:07:48 PM
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=18910&g2_serialNumber=2)

glued screwed glassed and undercoated....

still up to glassing on the other three... wanted to complete the entire process on one first.

still need to do the final sand to get it perfect but i thought i would get the others to this stage and then get finicky..
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Bedfordcrazy on March 11, 2010, 05:08:52 PM
Hey Able, nice flare,  clean tidy and not over the top.
George.
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: TheArchiTech on March 11, 2010, 05:27:03 PM
Hi Man they have come up very well. Are you looking at doing more fibre glassing on the under side to get rid of the gap between the flare and the traditional rim. On my first van that was my entension but I never got around to it the idea was to stop and dirt/ water etc flicking off from the tyre and getting stuck in the tricky spot to clean.  ;D
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on March 11, 2010, 05:44:10 PM
im tossing up between glassing it or using fiberglass bog to mould out in there.

then ofcourse chassis black enamel then sound deaden'er then chassis black enamel back over the lot for that high gloss look. 
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: TheArchiTech on March 11, 2010, 05:48:02 PM
I think glass would be better there would be alot of newtech (nz Fibre bog) to go in there to fill up the gap. It might take a bit longer to fibre glass it but it keeps everything nice and light and you doing a good job

As us kiwis say "All good things take time, you can't rush these things" my wife gets a bit sick of me saying this our bathroom is on the 3rd year of its revamp lol
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: cfjeff on March 11, 2010, 07:42:56 PM
phill, rebecca has nothing to complain about alison has been waiting 14 years for me to complete our bathroom, still no hurry ehh!

ps you or Troy comming to the nats in 3 weeks?

Cheers Jeff
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: able on March 11, 2010, 09:16:05 PM
Hey Able, nice flare,  clean tidy and not over the top.
George.

their bens from his five piece flare kit if anyone likes the look of them.

i here he can make them with one hand....  ;D
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: TheArchiTech on March 12, 2010, 07:08:31 AM
phill, rebecca has nothing to complain about alison has been waiting 14 years for me to complete our bathroom, still no hurry ehh!

ps you or Troy comming to the nats in 3 weeks?

Cheers Jeff


At the mo we still undercided, Sorry man I think it possibly might be a no as got a lot going on down here at mo. Might also give me more time to have pencilled in for 2 years time to come up there and win some trophys lol ;D

Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: Sundownernz on March 12, 2010, 09:21:32 AM
C'mon Phil. No excuses. You come up to the Nats and we'll give you a prize just for showing up.  ;D ;D :D.
You're not allowed to work over Easter anyway. It's against vanners religion so come up and have some fun.

C U there,
Garry.
Title: Re: installing flare kits methods and products required.
Post by: TheArchiTech on March 12, 2010, 09:27:47 AM
we will see there still 3 weeks to go :) I will get hold of Troy and Doug (Doug is a new memeber with a jumbo camper with pop top all orginal) will see how things go
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