BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: ShaneJ on April 19, 2013, 06:27:58 PM
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I've had my heart set on fitting a late falcon 6 into my van but after lots of measuring I have come to the realisation that its not going to work. Not if I want to leave some room for the passengers legs anyway.
So I'm thinking about going back to the plain and simple EFI 302. I dont have one available to me at the moment to get measurements or anything. Are there any pictures around of some Bedfords with the Windsor engine fitted?
Thanks
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go small block chev - cheaper and smaller
If you can afford it, get a crate engine, vortec
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Check out Craig's gallery page 1 & page 6 in his gallery Has a little windsor in one I recon there narrower than cheve & would be a great swap Idd stick to carby motor
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There was a LWB for sale a while back with a Windsor in it backed by a 5 speed. Great little engine, one of my favorites
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hoe much differance is there between a vortec and pre 85 SB chev
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I have just picked up a vp 5L v8 . I will be using all the running gear for My swb. I wil upload photos during the project.
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the vortec engine is an updated engine, uses different manifolds etc, cheaper to run .. and if running through a computer you can chip them etc
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Dano, the vortec is a roller block with better heads. I was looking into ti, and can get a rebuildable block for $650 i think it is. A pre vortec can be modified to suit the gear but it is difficult.
I'd been considering doing the build as 400hp is relatively easily achievable with the zz4 hot cam I think it is, as the heads flow REALLY well compared to earlier heads. I'm looking at another avenue currently tho.
Shane, I have long considered the falcon 6, what era were you looking at EA-AU, or BA-FG?
If EA-AU to make it easy, you'll want to get the EA or early EB log manifold to replace the BBM so that the manifold sits lower which should clear the floor. You will lose some of the low down torque the BBM manifold provides, however some people who have done the log to bbm conversion say its negligible. If going BA-FG the earlier manifolds wont fit the heads, so the best options here are either the FG XR6turbo manifold, or an aftermarket turbo manifold as they're similar to the log manifold. Realistically doing this with a turbo mounted would be ideal, as the XR6 turbos have soooo much potential with relatively simple mods and a tune.. Food for thought
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Are there any pictures around of some Bedfords with the Windsor engine fitted?
This is a 351 Windsor, so slightly taller. I would go for the 350 Chev personally, both for size reasons & that the Chev is cheaper to build/modify.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa424/MickTroeth/CIMG0272_zps24064171.jpg) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/MickTroeth/media/CIMG0272_zps24064171.jpg.html)
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Shane, I have long considered the falcon 6, what era were you looking at EA-AU, or BA-FG?
If EA-AU to make it easy, you'll want to get the EA or early EB log manifold to replace the BBM so that the manifold sits lower which should clear the floor. You will lose some of the low down torque the BBM manifold provides, however some people who have done the log to bbm conversion say its negligible. If going BA-FG the earlier manifolds wont fit the heads, so the best options here are either the FG XR6turbo manifold, or an aftermarket turbo manifold as they're similar to the log manifold. Realistically doing this with a turbo mounted would be ideal, as the XR6 turbos have soooo much potential with relatively simple mods and a tune.. Food for thought
Hi mate,
To start with I was going to use an AU engine as I have one sitting here.
The biggest problem with the AU engine is the front sump so you have to mount the engine way to high. You could cut and modify the sump but you'll structurally weaken the engine doing this.
I have an early and late EA/EB inlet manifold here but they make zero difference to the width of the engine. Its only the height they help with. As for the performance loss, believe me you loose a lot! About 8kw peak power and bucket loads of low down torque. With about 16 AU and later sixes under my belt and over 100 hours on the dyno with them, I know the difference! Believe me.
To resolve the front sump issue I started looking into the FG6 but again the width was a killer. About 40mm wider than the AU and the fact the inlet pipe also enters from the passenger side, your passenger would have no foot room at all. A log style inlet and a very low down turbo manifold and this engine may be doable, but it wont work for my purpose.
My van is going to be my tow car for trips to the NT. With a 3000k trip each way I need something reliable and not to thirsty. And being a Ford man, I think the 302 is the only option left for me. I did look at the explorer 6 engine, but they are to costly and not very reliable for the bit trips.
Zeeman, thanks for posting that picture. I have looked at it a few times but I'm puzzled why its sitting so high. My calculations and measurements (based on a Windsor 302 with rear sump) the valve covers should only just be protruding through the floor. Do you know if there is any pictures of underneath anywhere?
Thanks all for you're input. I'm not fitting a chev though ;D
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I'll get some pics of underneath for you.
For a transmission, you should look into the Ford AOD 4 speed auto. They can be beefed up quite easily & would be a bit cheaper than a Turbo 700.
The 4 speed auto with a 302 would give a good setup for towing, economy & power.
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More pictures will be great. Thank you
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My sisters ex put a Windsor in a Beddy back in the late 70's, We did it my uncles shed, who I started my apprenticeship with. I cant remember properly, but I don't think it sat that high. But I do remember making the cover out tin and a steel frame. It could have been a 351, cos all the running gear came from a ZC fairlane with a 9inch. Their are mechanical overdrive autos, it maybe me but I don't trust computer stuff to much, cos I can't fix it with out a computer and the right program. But I have to admit that they are smoother and cheaper to run, BUT they also break down more. (exspecialy when your going past Wolf Creek)
Getting back to what I was going to say is, parts for windsors are just as cheap as chev, pull them out of Amecica and you'll have them on your door in under a week. I've drove and raced windsors for the last 35 years, and I've only had a couple fall apart on me and that's my fault, still have 2 on the floor in the shed and 1 in a car that I've owned for over 20 years, and 5 years ago for a $50 bet, I proved it can sill lift the front wheels of the ground.
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Fair enough shane, sounds like you have done your research. Have you thought about the 300ci ford six from american and candaian pickups?
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I've been thinking about a toyta soarer? 4UZ v8 or 1jzTT straight 6. Can pick up a whole car now for around $2k. Has it been done?
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I have one of the "Candaian Sixes" sitting in the shed here. I have been looking for an excuse to build it up but I don't think the Bedford is the right application. These engines are pretty big! Do you have any references to build up guides or performance information for these engines? I haven't done anything with them before apart from stare at them ;D
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here are a couple of photos of the 400 small block chev i put in a LWB once upon a time
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Thats more like what I was expecting. Thanks for posting.
I'm not sure at this point how much room the long runner intake on the EFI 5.0 will take up. I expect it will require more room on the passenger side ???
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with the chev having a narrow "v" shape it was a simple conversion.....i got adaptor plates from holden 6 cyl to chev that bolted onto the engine mount. the only other thing i had to do was make an extension on the transmission cross member out of 15mm plate that extend back to accomodate the turbo 400 auto trans. [i had i 4 speed manual in it prior] I did the whole conversion on a gravel driveway!!!! took me a day to put it in on my own. the wiring was easy as most of it simply re-used the original bedford stuff. However....my father rewired most of the dash and got rid of the lucas switching.
Thing went like a stabbed rat!!!!!! infact if anything....it was a little to scary. I had the motor built by Chris Mills high performance with all the goodies done internally....my advice if you go for a chevy....dont use the 400ci as they have a different harmonic balancer to all other SBC engines.
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Here is a pic of the underneath.. sump is pretty deep.. with a modified sump & different mounts the motor could be a bit lower.
The engine cover is pretty big too.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa424/MickTroeth/IMG_2047_zps63f9870c.jpg) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/MickTroeth/media/IMG_2047_zps63f9870c.jpg.html)
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The lowest mounted engine I've seen was a 350 chev in an old custom van for sale here in Melbourne. The front of the engine mounted with a plate to the rear of the crossmember (kinda hard to see in pic). The motor was very low, weight balance would have been good. Motor was quite far back.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa424/MickTroeth/DSC00843-1_zps184b7a3c.jpg) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/MickTroeth/media/DSC00843-1_zps184b7a3c.jpg.html)
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa424/MickTroeth/DSC00848-2_zps43b2cd63.jpg) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/MickTroeth/media/DSC00848-2_zps43b2cd63.jpg.html)
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Here is a pic of the underneath.. sump is pretty deep.. with a modified sump & different mounts the motor could be a bit lower.
The engine cover is pretty big too.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa424/MickTroeth/IMG_2047_zps63f9870c.jpg) (http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/MickTroeth/media/IMG_2047_zps63f9870c.jpg.html)
Thanks for posting this one. If you had used a rear sump that engine would have sat a lot lower.
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Zeeman, my 350 is mounted similar to the red block on page 3. I use the bolt holes on the lower front of the block mounting to different engine mounts. the harmonic balancer pulley sits around 5mm off the crossmember.
Shane, I dont have any first hand experience of the 300ci six, however from previous research, in standard form (and modified most likely) the 300ci will produce more torque throughout the entire rev range than a 302ci v8 which is understandable based on the 6 larger pistons making up the capacity compared to the 8 of a 302ci. In terms of modification the 300ci has less options of aftermarket performance parts, tho I have no doubt there are parts available. The head could be worked like any iron head, the intake could be custom built out of tube steel/aly to suit your requirements and I'm sure there is somewhere that makes a custom cam for it. Get the dizzy recurved and modified for HEI, put some GOOD plug wires on it and a coil and you'll likely see some good HP with killer torque. If you make a manifold to suit triple webbers or the like, you'll have a true monster.
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I didn't build the green van with the Windsor, the previous owner did all the mechanical work. The work was all very well thought out except the engine being a little high.
After owning & seeing a few different V8 Bedfords, I think for any future build I would definitely use the same mounting as the Chev above, mounting the front of the engine to the rear of the crossmember as low as possible. The handling of the above van was great by all reports.
302 stroker kits are quite cheap. Less than 1500 for a good quality 347ci stroker kit. You will notice the difference in torque.
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With my van my aim isn't for max power or torque, its mainly realistic ease of fitment and also efficiency. When you want to do regular 6000k trips you don't want to be chewing 30L of fuel every 100k's :(
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Put it on LPG. I have a 1971 Mustang with a 393 stroker on gas, costs $30 to fill up & lasts most of the week..
One of my old Bedfords had a 150 litre gas tank fitted across the back & a small Impco carby, it was great. This was back in the days when LPG was 25c a litre! I think Gas Research make a carby that fits the same as a Holley carby, air cleaner/linkages & all, flows up to 750cfm but can also be tuned to be quite efficient.
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I just bought a fully recond 351 cleveland /Lpg, and fully recond tricked up c6, out of a ford GT XB,
Has the JG33 engine number prefix meaning Ford GT Sedan,
As the JG66 was the prefix for 2 door coupe.
My question is=
will a 351 clevo n C6 fit into a beddy van without too much drama,??
Can Anyone shed any light on the fit?
Cheers marty
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I've obviously never done it but the cleveland is a fair bit bigger than the windsor and will probably cause you trouble with the steering column. Can you measure from valve cover (outside edge) to valve cover for me?
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Length x width x height, in inches, without carb (approximately):
Ford 302: 29 x 24 x 27.5 Weight: 460 lbs
351 Cleveland: 29 x 25.5 x 27.5 Weight: 550 lbs
351 Windsor: 29 x 25 x 29 Weight: 525 lbs
350 Chev: 28 x 26 x 27 Weight: 575 lbs
I've seen a couple of CF's with 351 Clevelands fitted, looked OK to me. The fit was no worse than any other small block motor.
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mine is 22.5 inch wide Rocker cover to rocker cover ,without exhurst manifolds.
and 23 inch long from back of block to front
of block without water pump.
I will bolt the exhurst manifolds n water pump on tomorow n remeasure
Id say zeeman is right on ,
Looking at the width of pump n manifolds
I asked the mate i bought them off whats the difference between a C4 and C6?
Lol, his reply was he can lift a c4 but not a C6!
Hahaha, that tells me jack shit. I said, :-)
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Hey, I'm pretty new here and have mostly been lurking in the shadows, but thought I might have something to add to this discussion. You probably already know all this Shane but just in case :)
I've done a bit of research regarding fitting a later model falcon 6. To be honest you sound like you are much more knowledgeable than me but i'll throw this out anyway just in case. After reading around on various ford forums I think i remember discovering that the FG sump (which has a rear pan) and pickup should bolt onto earlier engines which i'm sure you know all have front pans, and therefore would allow you to mount the engine much lower.
I believe also territorys have the same rear pan sump.
It's been a while since I was looking into all this so I would definitely recommend that you look into it yourself, but this is the path I am probably going to pursue first when the time comes.
I've only some some rudimentary eye balling and tape measuring at this stage, but nothing led me to believe that it was going to be overly intrusive space wise.
If this information is any good to you and you do go ahead with a straight 6 install, I would very much love it if you took lots of pics and posted them up. And hey, if you felt like knocking up a second set of engine mounts, i'd be prepared to pay to not have to re-invent the wheel myself :)
Good luck which every way you go.
Ben
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Hi Ben, thanks for your reply here.
I can confirm that the G series sumps and the Territory AWD sumps(both rear pans) do not fit on the earlier AU/BA/BF engines without serious mods. The bearing retainers are the cause of the problems.
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Ahh well that's a bummer. My memory is a little hazy as it's been a while since I was looking into this.
Maybe I was thinking of just using the FG engine. But i'm sure there are problems with that path too. Something about the size of the plastic intake manifold springs to mind.
I have seen several other engine sumps modified ie the pan part moved to the other end, and pickup tube extended, for various engine transplants.
I have not take a close look at an AU sump, but might this be possible for anyone with reasonable welding/fabrication skills?
Ben
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The problem with the AU/BA/BF/FG sumps is they form part of the engines structural integrity. They achieve this fixing to the bottom end bearing caps so once you start cutting into the sump you instantly loose the strength gains the sump provides.
If the strength isn't important for your application you would be best using an earlier model block and then find a Cortina sump to fit. No reason you cant fit the later efi gear on this setup.
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Riiiight it's all coming back to me now. Sorry if I gave you a bum steer but it sounds like you had already sussed it all out anyway.
Just for my own curiosity, do you thing an FG engine would sit low enough that all the top end gubbins ie intake manifold etc wouldn't be too intrusive?
I realize the question is hard to answer seeing as you have not done it, but your impressions on the idea would still interest me.
Regards
Ben
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I'm not 100% sure obviously, but i think the FG engine would be more intrusive then an AU-BF due to the fact the inlet pipe enters the manifold from the passenger side.
If efficiency isn't a priority the best falcon engine to fit in a bedford would be an earlier model with steel sump and the EB style log manifold.
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That or a BA-FG turbo with a Nizpro type manifold (same principle as the EB log manifold) ;)
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G Day All
Im not at that stage on my bedford as yet but im looking at putting in a rb30 out of a vl i saw where a bloke in NZ fitted 1 looked like a bit of messing around id really like to put in a 5.7 but nsw regs are a joke engineer crazy way to costly. Even thought of buying a stat VE with a sidi & 6 speed auto just not sure what im going to do im still a fair wack off from that stage as yet
cheers John
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G Day All
Im not at that stage on my bedford as yet but im looking at putting in a rb30 out of a vl i saw where a bloke in NZ fitted 1 looked like a bit of messing around id really like to put in a 5.7 but nsw regs are a joke engineer crazy way to costly. Even thought of buying a stat VE with a sidi & 6 speed auto just not sure what im going to do im still a fair wack off from that stage as yet
cheers John
my CF facelift is the one with a Rb30e out of a VL, hasnt been too bad on the conversion as long as you start with a complete donor - stay away from the r31 skylines - that was my first mistake of trying to use as a r31 with a rb20 as donor, they have way too much wiring, the vl has a hell of a lot less. the conversion to put the vl rb30 took about four weekends to get it in and to kind of running, had a few headaches with fuel tank issues(factory one got blown up) and crank angle sensor(basically the points) crapping out but otherwise so far its good, turn key and it starts & runs. i tried the skyline conversion first and was stuck for about 18months trying to sort it out and couldnt get it to even run due to headaches in with the wiring. i have got heaps of photo's of the conversion.
Cheers
Scott