BUGA Community
Technical => Driveline => Topic started by: Worby876 on April 25, 2011, 07:39:10 PM
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Hi Fellas,
Hope you are all havin a great Easter long week end.
I took the old Bedford Motorhome for a spin today and it went Ok for about 10 15 KMs then when coming back
home I noticed it started to miss and lose power off the lights and nearly stalled at one point.
She coughed and spluttered and did some small back fires and really started to loose power even in low gear.
I tried her on petrol and still no good.
So I left here to cool down a bit and finally drove her home on dusk when the air was cooler and after I removed the air intake filter
she only just managed to crawl up our steep hill where I live and at a few points I thought she wouldn't make it.
Some back ground.
Its a 202 straight 6 donk running on dual fuel. 4 speed manual aussie box.
New spark plugs after I recently changed the head gasket over (she was loosing coolant out the exhaust and over heating)
Now she starts straight away on LPG and idles fine, doesn't get hot and seems OK but when she gets a bit warm looses power
and starts to miss and splutter and generally no real confidence in power.
I read about a similar thing here and it turned out to be bent valve rods when the head was reconned.
In my situation nothing was done to head or rods only a new head gasket fitted.
I dont think anything was changed or moved when i did that but Im not as mechanically savvy as my late father.
Some of you know his website Jacks Shed on old holden http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/)
so you can see what she is fitted out with etc.
Its fitted with a flash lube set up so the valves should be OK ...they seemed fine to me when I did the head gasket
change over a few weeks ago. She backfired so bad coming up the hill that it blew the exhaust muffler box apart and
I had to get a new one fitted.
Drove home from the muffler shop up the hill no probs...but it was raining and cool so maybe that was a factor.
Anyways Im not sure where to start looking..dont want to pull the head off again unless I have too,
Maybe its a timing thing? could it have gotten out of timing when i pulled the head off?
I didn't mover the motor or anything ...just took the head off scraped the block clean, new head gasket spray on goo' a new repco head gasket and put the head back on and retentioned all the head bolts in order using tension wrench as per Holden manual.
Once i finished I filled the radiator and added techtyl additive hit the keys and Vroom she started first go on LPG and purred like a kitten.
Like i said before Im not as mechanically minded as Dad, but happy to have a go..have basic tools, and not much $$$ so really need to fix it myself if possible.
Any clues or pointers appreciated.
cheers
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Hey Worby I know this may sound stupid but check the oil levil in the sump if it is low &you are going uphill the oil flows away from the pickup & without oil pressure the lifters dont pump up & ittle develope a miss mine done that on my last outing & I thought id blown it up but after I let it cool down & the oil all drained back into ths sump it ran fine again topped the oil up again & its fine now Just a thought
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Worby....Before i found this site i was a regular poster on the old holden site and talked to your dad once or twice when trying to get my bedford running better. I found him a wealth of information and just loved the way he put his ideas to work in a simple and practical way. He thought "outside the square " to solve any problems he had with his camper. It was very saddening to hear of his passing mate, but no doubt he is watching out for you and the bedford upstairs... cheers...Johnno. P.S I am wondering wether your problem might be ignition (plugs ,leads.distributor?) ;)
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Thanks for your kind words John,
we sure do miss him, Ive been reading his old threads trying to get an idea of what I should
do to get the Old girl to pull up the hill without dying in the rear end.
http://oldholden.com/node/27503#comment-110045 (http://oldholden.com/node/27503#comment-110045)
I will check the Oil levels and the leads, coil etc to see if I can find any obvious
tell tails signs of whats causing the problem.
like i said its got new plugs, and she starts and idles fine...like a proverbial sewing machine.
So unless the coil or leads or dizzy breaks down under load Im not sure what it could be.
I might need to invest in a timing strobe light and a pressure gauge to measure the cylinders
to ensure I haven't dropped a valve or something. Dad had all the gear but my step mum
sold or gave a lot of it away :'(
My hope is to get her back to her former glory and do a trip to the Alice and back.
Or down to Victoria to do the great Ocean Road....just for the heck of it ::)
cheers
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have just had the same problem with my red 202 & standard (single thrught) carb...
i managed to fix it enough to get us home this easter & about 120km to home but only at 60k max but up hill at 45km in second was fine..
i is the carb.. i found thius with the simptons you had.. i broke down on the side of the road 15km from our start of poiun back...
took it off.. stripped it down. but didnt have anythis small enough to clear out the jets...
put it back together & could start & idle fine could even rev it up over 3k & ok... but no power under load...
limped tp a frends place about 30km away & luck they were there.. played around with it most of the day with coils.. wires etc... but the only thig that made it any better was pulling the choke on to get a better less lumpy running speed... thats how i got home.. using the choke to get it to run better.. I'm going to strip & re-build it this week & yes i had the same problem with exhuse also blew the manifold -exhust ring to bits.. sounds like a tractor..
hope this helps..
David
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Could be fuel pump too
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I think you might have read my post about the bent push rods.
I've had to change my head gaskets numerous times for various reasons, but this sounds like exactly the same problem I had on one change-over. The hydraulic lifters. If they are not bled properly, they will fill up and not empty when under load. It will idle fine, but any load will cause it to backfire as some of the valves are open all over the shop. So if you just change the head gasket and put the head back on and just bolt all the rockers back in without bleeding them ,you'll have this problem.
What I had to do is go back and take the spark plugs out, take the rocker cover and all rockers off, set cylinder 1 at TDC (take the cover off the dizzy and see it at 1, and use a long screw driver in the spark plug hole to check it's all the way up), see that the push rods on 1 were completely down and level, THEN torque the rockers down. this will bleed the lifters for that cylinder. Then turn the engine until the next set of rods (on 5) are completely down and level and did the same thing. The firing order is 1 5 3 6 2 4. This solved the problem I had which had the same symptoms as yours.
hope this helps!
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I had a similar problem on a Toyota 15 years ago checking carby, ignition, I had that carby apart 20 odd times turned out to be an air leak on the inlet manifold, run some water from a hose or oil from oiling can over manifold casket and if there is a leak you will see it being sucked in. Alternatively just recheck nuts for tightness
Cheers
Joe
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Hi fellas...Thanks for all your suggestions...wow...there a lot of possible things to cause this problem eh?
Well I had a look at the Oil level this morning and she is full and a nice honey colour, as she has hardly
done any miles since the last oil change..less than 100 I figure.
I tried to start her on LPG and she struggled to start..and wouldn't idle...kept on dying.
I gave her some revs and kept the idle up hoping she would come good when it got a bit warm
but was very lumpy and rough and finally died.
I tried again with a little adjustment on Dads advance device that moves the dizzy around a bit for
better performance on ULP and LPG see here if your interested.
http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Adjustable+Distributor+Settings+whist+on+the+move/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Adjustable+Distributor+Settings+whist+on+the+move/)
and this thread here
http://oldholden.com/node/27503#comment-110284 (http://oldholden.com/node/27503#comment-110284)
I noticed the fan belt was squealing a bit when I gunned the revs so i will retention the fan belt at the alternator,
but doubt this is a factor of the probs...(everything happens in 3's so Im told)
Also I noticed the flashlube reservoir was empty ...so I bought a new bottle from Super-cheap Auto along with a new timing strobe light
& cylinder pressure meter kit oh my aching wallet ...credit card actually :'(
So after I refilled the Flashlube bottle I restarted her but still wouldn't idle...rough as guts...
I tried her on ULP and after pumping the gas peddle finally she coughed to life and hey presto...shes purring
away ever so nicely on ULP (petrol) I reset the lever on Dads gismo for ULP and the idle was nice and smooth.
So I drove her back in the drive way (not risking a run just yet in case i can make it back up the Hill where I live..
very steep (I reckon 16% grade or more...Its a bugger to walk up if your not fit ...like me ::) )
Anyway I stopped her, and flicked back to LPG and she stated but still rough and lumpy and dies..What the @#$..
Back inside for a cup of tea and a lie down and try to figure what is going on...most strange...
It could be the valve rods not set right as per one of the posts..I didn't know they where hydraulic lifters
I just thought they rod up and down on the cam and the "T" pieces and rocker covers tensioned down
kept them all nice and snug...Are all 202 fitted with Hydraulic lifters?...I didn't recall the workshop manual
say anything about resetting them one by one after the headgasket removal change over?
I will experment with the timing light to see if its all synced OK with the dizzy etc and to see if the mechanism dad made
does advance the light about and inch or or so back and forth which according to his notes equals 6 to 12 degrees.
Im in uncharterd territory here fellas..so bear with me :o
Then I guess I will take the engine cover off and test the compression of all the pots to rule out any possible damage
or enset of Valve seat Recession (VSR) ..boy I hope not...
Hey will this also tell me if I need to reset the valve push rods ? Or do I have to take the rocker cover off to do that?
Thanks again for all your suggestions and interest....I should be out enjoying the holiday eh..the joys of motoring and all that.
but sounds like i'm in good company eh?
Cheers
Ian
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if shes running good on petrol, and goes to crap when you turn it to gas, when cold and not when hot. Try the gas system, sounds like it migh be jelling up and needs a clean
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most manuals don't cover everything that should be done, or they leave an important "NOTE:" at the end of a chapter AFTER you've been through the procedures.. Grrrrr.
It definitely sounds like your lifters are not set right, causing valves to be open at odd places making it hard to have any compression to maintain fuel in the chambers and backfiring. If all was going well before the head gasket change, then I would really recommend you reset the lifters as posted before.
BTW, all 186s and 202s, in fact just about all the red/blue/black have hydraulic lifters. Only the very early engines had solid lifters.
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Talk about getting help from the grave..
I was doing some search to school up on setting up the valve push rods and found
this on line article from my Dad...
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Hydraulic_Lifters (http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Hydraulic_Lifters)
Im printing it out and will see what I have to do if I need to to reset the push rods and
lifters etc...
Seems like a major job..but hopefully I can do it. :P
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It really isn't that hard. The first few times, one manual insisted to REMOVE the lifters and take them all apart (keeping them in order using an 12 egg carton) clean them out and put them back together, then re-install them, which took hours.. The other manual recommended the procedure I outlined, as has your Dad, which takes about an hour. If you have the non-adjustable rocker posts, even easier. Make sure you remove the spark plugs for easier turning of the engine.
Good luck, but I'm reasonably sure this is the problem.
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If she runs fine on PETROL there's nothing wrong with the motor If you switch to GAS without running the carbie empty it wil run rough because the motor wont run on both the carbie has to be empty before you switch to gas But it sounds like the gas systemneeds a complete overhall which needs to be done by a PRO because they are touchey things
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aahh the weathers turned crap...wet and windy and I dont have a shed to park her in
so its gonna have to wait till the weekend....i'll do some more reading and give the
push rods a reset...I cant remember if they got mixed up or if I kept them in order
when I took the head off to replace the blown head gasket.
Ive read that its important to keep them in the right order and the right side up,
I gather so they marry up with the same degree of wear and tear when they go back in
but is there any other reasons? I mean they are all basically the same aren't they?
What happens if they do get mixed up? What the worse that could happen?
Im gonna stay a wake at night worring about it now until I get it sorted ???
I will look into the LPG gas thing getting gummed up but its hard to see why its just
happened all of a sudden like since the head gasket blew.
cheers
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I would worry about the mix up of push rods. I've changed and mixed mine a few times, and it didn't make a difference.
The real thing to keep in order is the lifters and rockers with the posts. The lifters and cam lobes wear together, and if mixed up they can gradually wear in different parts. But since you didn't pull them out, no worries.
Same with the rockers. they wear with the posts. not the end of the world, and are very cheap to replace.
I agree, it's hard to see why it would be the gas system if you've only changed the head gasket. there is a procedure for changing and setting the head back in, which in no way affects the gas works.
I've changed the head and gaskets numerous times (about 12 times!) as I've up graded components and the earlier changeovers (before I understood about the lifters) definitely had all the symptoms you're having before resetting the lifters.
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Thanks for the advice Im sure I will be much more confident once Ive done
this once or twice 8) eh?
I upload the pics I took when i did the head gasket at Xmas can you tell me
if these are the non adjustable rockers or not? see last picture in the album.
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30835&g2_serialNumber=2)
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doh Im still learning how to upload pictures on this site
so I will try again...(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=30858&g2_serialNumber=2)
ok try this...fingers crossed.. :P
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Yes, they are the non-adjustable ones. So, tdc on each cylinder in turn and torque them down to 42nm. You'll be fine.
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Thanks again...Ok heres a silly question, but after I pull the plugs out use a long screw driver to observe TDC...
How do you usually turn the motor over..do you remove the front grill and radiator to get a hold of the fan and
turn her that way or stab the starter in little jolts or ....what ?
I told you Im not as savvy as the Old man...I was too busy watchin TV or playin on the computer when
he was tinkering with the Cars and stuff...I should have paid more attention.
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Never turn it over with the starter With a screwdriver down the plughole you will punch a hole in a piston for sure Get a mate to turn it over with the fan
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I just found this on Old Holden.com
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Rockers_and_Pushrods#Setting_Non-Adjustable_Valve_Gear: (http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Rockers_and_Pushrods#Setting_Non-Adjustable_Valve_Gear:)
Thought Id post it in case others might find the step by step instructions of interest.
Setting Non-Adjustable Valve Gear:
1. Any Rocker Gear work must be performed with the Rocker Cover removed so a new Rocker Cover Gasket is a must.
2. The Side Covers will have to be removed to replace the Hydraulic Lifters so new Side Cover Gaskets will be requiired as well.
3. Removing old Lifters can be a challenge. They sometimes mushroom and have to be hammered out from underneath after removing the Camshaft. I've been able to remove them by "twist lift and lower". Repeat that process with some powerful Multigrip Pliers. It took a long time.
4. Before fitting new Hydraulic Lifters leave them soaking in Oil so that they will fill
up and lose all the air in them. This will save a lot of problems during the initial startup.
The Oil will flow through them faster and minimise the risk of Valve Gear wear. They can also be pumped full of Oil by standing them vertically in a container and pressing the inner plunger
up and down with a Pushrod.
5. Once the new Hydraulic Lifters have been installed fit the Pushrods making sure that each one is centred.
6. Make sure the Pushrods are clean including their centres. The centre of the Pushrod carries
Oil up to the Rocker Arms. If it's blocked no Oil will flow and the Valve Gear will fail. Make sure the Rockers have holes drilled in them where the Pushrods fit. The holes allow Oil to flow
from the Pushrods into the Rocker Arms.
7. Next, fit the Rockers, Saddles and Bolts as a complete set in pairs but leave them all with the Rocker Bolts finger tight. Rocker Saddles are marked with Arrows which must point towards the Valves on straight 6 Cylinder Holden Engines.
8. Make sure the Pushrods are centred in the Rocker Arms by rotating the Pushrods and confirming each Pushrod can turn easily.
9. Look for any Pushrods that are in the closed position by comparing them. Find a pair that
has both Pushrods sitting equally at the lowest height and start torquing down that pair of Rocker Arm Bolts.
10. The Rocker Arm Bolts should be torqued down to 28 ft/lbs with the Valves in the closed position. Tighten them a part turn at a time allowing each Hydraulic Lifter time to compress.
The Lifter will take about 10 seconds to compress per quarter turn of the Bolt.
11. Rotate the Crankshaft until each Valve pair is closed. One at a time torque the Bolts
down allowing time for the Lifters to settle.
12. After torquing each pair, check to see that each Pushrod can be rotated freely. This will
prove that the Lifter has settled and properly adjusted to nil clearance.
13. If any Pushrod cannot rotate freely when its Valve is closed, and after a settling period,
the fault will have to be investigated. Tightening the Rocker Arm Bolts too rapidly can cause the Oil Hole in the Rocker Arm to indent the Pushrod end and prevent it from rotating. Free rotation is important to minimise wear of the Valve Gear and the Camshaft since the Lifters are rotated with each opening of a Valve and cause the Pushrods to rotate with them.
14. Oil the centre of each Rocker Arm.
15. Perform a startup and make sure that Oil is spurting from the end of each Pushrod into
it's Rocker Arm.
16. Make sure the Engine is firing equally on all Cylinders.
17. After running the Engine briefly, shut it down and make sure that the Pushrods are still free to rotate.
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turn it by fan belt or by putting a couple of bolts in the harmonic, then use a bar of some sought. By joltting the starter is to hard as it rolls over top dead centre. Oh, and dont leave the screw driver in the plug hole while you turn it over. Try looking at the mark on the harmonic first. Remember, if it runs good on petrol ::) ::)
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First off, what you posted is correct procedure of resetting your lifters. By all accounts, you do not need to remove your lifters unless your cam shaft is totally worn out. This would take a dyno tune to assess. Not your problem here. If you can have the dizzy cover off, noting the firing order, and seeing how it goes from one point to the other, you can do it without anything in the spark plug inlet. By having all the push rods in place and observing them in order as you move the front crank shaft belt pulley wheel clockwise. This can be done by moving the water fan pulley whilst pushing down on the belt between the water pump and lower crank pulley wheel. Do it reeeeal slow, so you can see each rod go down in order. Knowing that 1 5 3 6 2 4 is the order to follow in watching, then, slowly, slowly rotate clockwise until each set of pushrods at each point of the dizzy for each cylinder is down completely. Then bolt down. I do prefer having something to tell me concretely that the piston has reached it's highest point, hence the screwdriver, or even soft rope fed into the chamber.
From what I've gathered from your posts so far, it is NOT just the gas system that is doing this. Anybody who hasn't done this procedure after experiencing the exact same symptoms will reach other conclusions. This is my experience of this problem and I offer it for the sake of no bullshit f#cking around with wild options. Do it right, and you'll get it right.
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Thanks Mate...
You know these threads could make a kinda "Idiots Guide to fixing Bedfords"
which is why these sites are such a great idea eh?
I appreciate the step by step kind paint by numbers approach...cheers
I gather from your instructions that I will need to remove the front Grill and Radiator Shroud...
Possibly even the Radiator to get access to the Water Pump and Fan Belt and get a bit of Purchase
to make the motor turn over. Theres not much space between the Radiator and the Fan and belts
for Hands and levers and such ;)
Again I really appreciate your advice and continued interest...I ll keep you all posted on my progress.
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probably just the radiator shroud.
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well at least i can see light at the end of my tunnel.....
i stripped my carb down on tuesday & soaked all parts in Kero over night/day.
Cleaned & checked all air and petrol ways in it, all jets & filters.. what alot of C$%^P came out with the Kero 3 times it went from a light blue to Black ..
Re-asembled it as per Yours Dads old Holden page.. just about to bolt on the carb &.. whats that on the bench???
oppssss forgot the top gasget (big one above the fuel chamber... :o
would not have been a good look.... ::)
well put that in & bolted it back on put cables etc... back on..
well what a diffrent Van... before with choke out it would bogg down when you stabbed the peddle but not now.. oh & also check that you put the vacume hose back on the carb also ::)
test run is today up the hill that i could only do 15km before..
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Inlet manifold vacume leak?
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Im glad to hear you got it fixed and that Dads info was also a great help.
heres hoping I can make similar progress this weekend in getting the push rods all
set and bedded down in the right order.
Cheers... or is that Kiora bro 8)
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gday, u said it idled smooth on petrol what happened when u revved it? if it runs fine on petrol then its definitely the gas and sounds like water is not getting to the gas converter and its freezing. feel the converter and youll soon know. if it freezes u have no power its happened to me heaps. the water hose to it may have an air lock, easy to fix just pull the hose off and fill it with water. worth a look i reckon way easier than all that lifter biz. thats if its that!! GOOD LUCK! westy.
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Hi Guys,
I think I made a little bit of progress today.
First I started the motor on LPG and she was a bit slow to fire and finally coughed
to life after a few cranks but idled pretty rough...like i thought there might be a hole
in the extractors..but after a minute of keeping the revs she settled down ...so
Im thinking yeah.. one or more of those valves are not performing right because the
the push rods are not tensioned right yet.
OK , I then took the rocker cover off and started to remove the spark plugs and the one in No#4
shattered...its brand new..just put them in at XMAS and have done less than 20KM.
then I noticed NO#5 plug was cracked...Hmmm did that happen before and this was what the fuss was
or did I some how break it getting it out..they were a bit snug ..my son Michael put them in when we
did the head gasket so maybe he did hem up a tad tight?? :-\
Next..I started to take the compression test for each pot using a new gauge I purchased from Supercheap.
I screwed the adapter in each spark plug hole finger tight and then the gauge assembly, cracked the engine over 5 times and noted the pressure. they were all pretty much right on 150psi.
With the Exception of cylinder no# 4 which was down... at only 130psi. ???
I checked all the push rods and most I could easily "twiddle" with my fingers...
So I thought OK these do need some adjusting and tightening up as per the posts here before.
I too the radiator shroud off to try and get some purchase on the fan belt while moving the fan around
clockwise but didn't seem to be able to turn the motor, as I kept an eye on the rotor button in the dizzy
and the valves and rockers, hmmm this might be a two person job.
I was running out of daylight but thought I would at least nipp up the rocker assembly over the No#4
pot got the torque wrench out set at 42nm and it clicked right away, so I did a 1/4 extra turn and noticed
I could no longer "twiddle" the push rods....I re cranked the motor and the pressure has come up almost to
150 Psi (maybe 145 or so)...
I want to do the procedure from No#1 right through to No#6 but the motors gonna be stone cold by morning
so I guess I have to put it all back together , run the motor warm again and start over...but I need to figure
an easier way of turning the motor over by hand..may need to put a couple of bolts in the harmonic balancer
and use the big flat screw driver as a lever to pull it around...not much room though with the radiator in the way.
Oh and Im gonna need to replace those two spark plugs..still...I think I made some progress...
Will see what tomorrow brings....and then I will check the other matter regarding possible issues with the LPG..but
I kind think its really the Rockers, push rods and valve set up that caused the main loss of power under load and missing and back firing etc...or maybe its a combination of several things...???
Cheers
Cheers
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Thats the way Worbs....Slow and steady. Its a process of elimination now ;D ;D ;D
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You won't need to put it all back together to warm up the engine. since they are non-adjustable rocker posts, you can do it cold. The adjustable ones are the ones you need to have the engine warm to set properly.
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aahhhh !!! this is really starting to get to me !! :(
I put it all back together...started on LPG but again still rough as guts until she warms up
with revs and then she returns to a smoother idle but once I take the foot off the accelerator
she's really lumpy and finally dies !!!
So I restart with ULP (petrol) and she idles fine at around 550 rpm just like text book
the motor warms but doesn't get Hot Temp gauge still at bottom hardly off from dead cold.
So the cooling system is all good.
I can rev her up to 3500 Rpm and all good..(not game to take her above this even though I saw some
one else on a similar post say they could rev their stock LPG run 202 to 6,000 RPM !!!)
Ok, so I know something is not quite right on LPG (I figure I can address this later) so lets try her
on petrol.
I put the van into 1st start to drive up out of my drive way and I can tell she is hesitating under load
I roll back and try several more times...I know I can really give lots of revs to force her up the drive but
thats not the point she should easily do it with plenty of confidence...thats the real thing now..
I just don't have confidence...something is not right but I cant figure what it could be.
the Engine starts fine and idles fine , it revs fine, its got 150 psi in 5 pots and 145 to 147 in No#4
still pretty respectable...its got new spark plugs, Oil level is fine, coolant level is good, I can see the green
water in the expansion bottle...and temp is fine all good.
Something is robbing power under load...could it be a sticking valve?? maybe one or more of them got out of shape
before...when she did that massive back fire that blew the exhaust box apart a few weeks ago after i had done the head gasket...but maybe not properly set the rockers, pushrods etc as per this discussion.
If I don't have confidence to even drive her out of the drive way...Im not gonna have much confidence to take her for a real test run to see how she goes on the open road.
Anyone got any further ideas? Maybe if I could post a video of how she starts and sounds on LPG and then on Petrol
and how she hesitates and such when under load???
How do I post a video? on this forum?
Cheers
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So you did reset the lifters? If you use a vacuum gauge from a point on the inlet manifold, that will also show you a lot of what is actually happening. This site shows you all the scenarios that can occur.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm)
Remember lpg needs advancing on the dizzy.
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I didn't reset the lifters, as I was led to believe because I hadn't removed them when i did the head gasket exchange
I didn't need to..and something about only really knowing on a dyno test if they needed attention.
I did retention the two valve rockers over the NO#4 pot until I could no longer get the push rods to "twirl" in my fingers and got the compression back up to near 150 PSI.
I wont be able to do this systematically until I figure an easier way of turing the motor over slowly by hand
to determine TDC for each cylinder. So on that point I know I could still be in trouble..although the motor seems to idle nice and not making any funny noises from the tappets etc except when running on LPG until she warms up a bit.
I happen to have two vacuum gauges permanently mounted in the cab, a great big one on top of the dash above the steering wheel marked idle, drive, economy and poor etc. and another smaller one marked at HG 0 to 60
next to the Volt meter. (Dad must have had these set up before when he had the Beddy 8) )
Thanks for the website on how to use the vacuum gauge to test or diagnose whats going on inside the motor.
On Petrol (ULP) The Motor pretty much sits solid on 20 at idle and all the way to 3,000 RPM on slow stead acceleration and showed none of the symptoms as indicated on the website.
On Gas (LPG) she was fluttering between 10 and 15 until she settled (as the motor warmed up or the Gas converter warmed) and remained roughly near a steady 20 (maybe 18 or 19) but was no where near as smooth on acceleration, and if I gave rapid acceleration and took my foot off quick she would invariably stall.
Now I have been giving this all some more thought and one thing that was done before after the head gasket was
replaced but BEFORE the big backfire incident that blew the muffler apart and the first time I experienced a rapid loss of power under load...and that was the fact that the local LPG gas inspector that did my re certification replaced the
gas shut off valve and relay switch assembly unit as he claimed it was leaking !!! (yeah right..I never noticed any loss of gas but I guess they make their money some how. :-\ ) im re looking at dads notes and set up here http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Jack-s_001/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Jack-s_001/) and here http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/LPG++Parts/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/LPG++Parts/)
Still I cant see how that would affect anything either the gas is on or its off eh?
I will check the timing tomorrow with the strobe light to see if that gives any clues.
BTW I fiddled with Dads device http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Adjustable+Distributor+Settings+whist+on+the+move/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Adjustable+Distributor+Settings+whist+on+the+move/) that regulates the dizzy forward and back 6 to 10 degrees and it actually worked worse in the Petrol position when on ULP so i left it in the Gas LPG position where it idled much better.
Maybe the strobe light will confirm if this is set up correctly or has somehow been "upset" recently...I never made any changes to the dizzy or its current setting so its a bit of a mystery.
Something to think about over night while I go to the movies to watch Fast 5 with my son.
Cheers
-
I didn't mean reset the lifters as in remove them, I meant the process of loosening all the rockers and manually turning the engine over for each cylinder to TDC and then torqueing down the rockers for that one. As discussed previously. I still believe that since that wasn't done when you did the head gasket, it has caused the lifters to not be compressed properly and so fluctuates the valves. You'll still have compression for each cylinder, but when all are operating and some valves are opening and closing at non-appropriate times, you'll be losing lots of power under load, backfiring, even if it idles fine. and as you say, it's hard to start.
I had exactly the same symptoms as your petrol and lpg notes. The even weirder one was when the push rods were bent, which you'll see when you twirl the rods whether they are straight or not. But I'd really follow the procedure of setting the lifters properly to eliminate that possibility.
The gas shut off valve and relay switch assembly unit will either give it gas or not.
-
BTW I fiddled with Dads device http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Adjustable+Distributor+Settings+whist+on+the+move/ (http://gallery.oldholden.com/Jack_s/Adjustable+Distributor+Settings+whist+on+the+move/) that regulates the dizzy forward and back 6 to 10 degrees and it actually worked worse in the Petrol position when on ULP so i left it in the Gas LPG position where it idled much better.
Buy your statement here I believe your timing is out. If the motor running on Petrol works better in the LPG setting and rough in the Petrol setting then it is out by around 6 degrees (going on your dads settings)
If an engine runs to far advanced it will do the things you have said.
So Adjust your lifters and check/adjust the timing, maybe your dads Ubeaut arm is bent.
Warren
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sounds like distributor troubles to me . its time for the KISS principal here .1#check for true tdc ,Holden sixes have a habit of spinning the harmonic balancer giving a false tdc,2#check the distributor for wear/play in the shaft & advance plate check the point gap ,gas needs a stronger spark than petrol .I dont believe your lifters are hydraulicing as it would have run rough immediately and just a curve ball check the dizzy cap for cracks as that is a notorios cause of backfiring Cheers Neil
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Back from the Movies..not a bad flick that fast 5 the last of the fast and furious series.
Thanks fellas for your suggestions I will try and check them out in the morning as we have
yet another long week end here in Sunshine state 8)
I bought a new timing strobe light..never used one before but Im gonna give it a go
and see what I discover.
I will try to post a few more pics and even a video if I can...might need to be a link from Youtube
as Im not sure if you can post a mov. file or similar here.
cheers
-
Ok Ive posted pics of the compression tests for each cylinder...
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31064&g2_serialNumber=2)
I will do some more pictures & Maybe even a Video clip too
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Here are some Videos I did today looking at the motor on LPG and Petrol
and looking at the vacuum gauge settings and then with the timing light.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msRoeO33D2o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msRoeO33D2o)
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3XUmFDRc5w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3XUmFDRc5w)
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYiIZMaXaqM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYiIZMaXaqM)
I started adjusting the lifters/pushrods but broke my only 1/2" socket
so it'll keep till next weekend
cheers
-
theres nothing wrong with the valve train because the vacumm guage would flutter at idle if any valves were unseated so i would be looking at ignition faults for your answer Cheers Neil
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im in agrement with merlin on this one.. after going for a test drive i could idle fine rev it upto 4000rpm+ & all is good, under load it cakles, back fires no power...
just about ready to push it off a ciff... >:(
then remembered i had a blue Elec dissy setup.. & folowed the wookbook on old holden on replacing the old red dissy with the blue elec one..
2 hours later & it starts first turn of the key.. idles better as well..
i think you prob could be ether the condenser in the dissy or coil as that is what 3 people whom owned 6 & 8 cyl holdens have told me it could be..
and also check the vacume advance is moving ok..
test drive is today with the elec dissy in..
-
Worby
In one of the vids you state the idle speed as 350 rpm, I'm not sure but that sounds a bit low to me, I thought around the 500 rpm was around what it was ment to be - I could be wrong though.
Also when at low revs you move the lever to the gas position it idles better because ther is more advanced timing, but if you run to much advance at working revs you will have issues.
The timing and tuning should be optimised for the working rev range ie 2500 rpm to 3000 rpm, thats where the engine does most of its work, not idle speed.
Your dads lever setup was to overcome the difference in timing advance needed for gas and petrol, most gas conversions will time an engine half way between, or further towards the Gas advance, predomanatly because it will be running on gas more often than petrol.
This is a compromise that your dads setup counters by manually shifting the dizzy to the optimum position for each fuel.
I would run the engin on gas with the lever in the "gas" position and time the engine at 2500 rpm, then if it idles a bit rough then just up the idle speed a bit.
Then change over to petrol, switch the lever to the "Petrol" setting and check the timing again at 2500, once again if it idles a bit rough just up the idle.
Then test drive it and see how it goes.
I'm not sure if you know but when switching from Petrol to gas you need to run the engine with both fuels shut off for a time to allow the carby to be drained of fuel otherwise if you switch straight to gas you get the combination of Gas & petrol and have way to rich of a mixture, this can cause the poping and farting and explosions in the exhaust as the unused fuel mix passes through the motor unburnt and into the exhaust system and is ignited by heat or flames from another cylinder.
The switch to turn between Petrol and gas should be a 3 way switch with Gas at one end petrol at the other and both shut off in the middle.
Warren
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well that was it.. after a little fine tuning with fuel mix & dizzy its all good.. the problem was in the dizzy.. either the condenser or points or coil...
hope you find your problem soon..
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The 350 RPM was what it drops to when she is running really rough and nearly stalls when on LPG when the Lever is in the Petrol position.
When running on Petrol she idles nicely around 550 RPM.
IM getting a bit frustrated or confused now..because I thought the problem was definitely the push rods and lifters not properly set.
But now the concensus seems to be that it more likely a timing issue.
I've done a timing light test and it seems the dot or mark the notch on the pully or harmonic balancer is sitting well before the long white
line on idles with the vacuum advance blocked to the dizzy. and then when I move the lever to Petrol its past or advanced by about and inch or so.
I need to do some more reading and research to figure out where it should be.
Also one suggestion was to time on LPG at 2500 RPM ...er What does that mean?
Um rev to 2500 and turn the dizzy till the dot is in line with the line or 6 degrees advanced or what??/
Cheers
Ian
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Have you checked that when the mark on the harmonic balance is aligned with the TDC mark on the timing gear cover on the block that the No1 piston is in the Top Dead Center position, this can be easily done by taking the spark plug out and with a torching shining into the No1 cylinder through the spark plug hole have an assistant watch the piston come up as you turn the engine over by hand and align the timing marks
Cheers
Joe
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Great collection of videos! By all accounts now that I can see the gauge/s in action, the lifters have settled. So that's settled.
Now I'd check the push rods aren't bent. Maybe when you had that massive backfire, a valve/s were sticking, and so the rods had nowhere else to go but sideways. Set each cylinder at TDC in order, and twirl the rods. You'll see if they are bent.
Good work so far!
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The 350 RPM was what it drops to when she is running really rough and nearly stalls when on LPG when the Lever is in the Petrol position.
When running on Petrol she idles nicely around 550 RPM.
IM getting a bit frustrated or confused now..because I thought the problem was definitely the push rods and lifters not properly set.
But now the concensus seems to be that it more likely a timing issue.
I've done a timing light test and it seems the dot or mark the notch on the pully or harmonic balancer is sitting well before the long white
line on idles with the vacuum advance blocked to the dizzy. and then when I move the lever to Petrol its past or advanced by about and inch or so.
I need to do some more reading and research to figure out where it should be.
Also one suggestion was to time on LPG at 2500 RPM ...er What does that mean?
Um rev to 2500 and turn the dizzy till the dot is in line with the line or 6 degrees advanced or what??/
Cheers
Ian
Ian it does seem as if your getting confused.
By the sounds of the engine running in your vids your pushrods are fine.
Ok time to explain timing.
The timing is the point at which the spark plug "sparks" to ignite the fuel mix.
At different revs the timing differs, less advance at idle (500 rpm), greater advance at working speed (2500 - 3000 rpm)
Different fuels have different burning characteristics, Petrol is an explosive, quick burning fuel, were as LPG or gas is a slower burning fuel und thus they require different timing points.
Advance - the number of degrees before Top Dead Centre (TDC)
At idle the engine requires almost no advance.
In your case at working revs 2500- 3000 rpm 6 degrees befor TDC for Petrol and 12 degrees befor TDC .
There are two main types of auto advance systems - Mechanical and Vacuum.
Mechanical - Inside the dizzy there is a set of springs holding weights that are attached to a advance cam.
At low speed the springs are strong enough to hold the weights in and thus the advance cam is at its least position.
As the revs increase the centifugal force acting on the spinning weights gets greater forcing the weights out, this acts on the cam turning it and increasing the advance.
Vacuum - a rubber diaphram is connected to the advance cam by a lever, at low revs there is low vacuum in the inlet manifold and no energy to move the diaphram, so it stays at the least position, as the revs rise the vacuum pressure increases, sucking on one side of the fiaphram and movining the lever and advance cam.
Now to time your Van correctly.
Ensure that the TDC mark on the harmonic balancer lines up with the indicator when the engine is at TDC.
Ensure that the vacuum tube to the distributor is connected and working.
Run the engine on gas, with the lever in the gas position, set the engine revs to 2500 rpm and then ensure the 12 degrees befor TDC mark is in line with the indicator, if not move distributor till it is. once it is set right, set the idle to around 500 rpm or where it runs reasonably smoothly.
That should be it.
If you want to check the timing for Petrol, run the engine on Petrol with the lever in the petrol position, all being equal the 6 degree bfeor TDC mark should line up with the indicator. it should not require moving the dizzy - thats the idea of your dads lever.
Note that if the engine is timed at 2500 rpm then the idle speed advance should be close to the Zero dgrees before TDC.
Also when running on petrol ONLY have the lever in the Petrol position, and when running gas, only in the Gas position, don't mix them as this will adversly effect the timing and thus preformance.
Warren
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When my pushrods were bent, it idled and revved perfectly. As soon as you put it in gear, it would have no power whatsoever.
It took me 2 months to discover it, because everyone else was insisting it was the timing, or the gas setup, or the spark plugs, or the dizzy, or the brake booster, or the oil pump, or the air filter, or the gas lines, or the camshaft, or the coil, or the engine earth... I'm surprised someone didn't insist "Well it must be your windshield!" >:(
I checked/replaced all of these things and still it would idle and rev perfectly, but no power under load. It drove me to the point of a nervous breakdown. NOBODY had any more ideas.
It was not until I swapped the HEI dizzy for the old points one (another insisting opinion) , and was twirling the rods on cylinder one to make sure it was TDC, that I could see the rods were bent. Checked the rest of them, and more than half were bent. Replaced all of them: BINGO! Power to the max!
-
Fair poitn Rothu, and easy to check as well.
So Worby check to see if you have bent pushrods first and then move on to the timing.
Warren
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Hey fellas, thanks for all your comments and general interest...sorry Ive been away at a conference and the weekends have been wet so not much more progress...but hoping to do some more this weekend weather permitting.
I will try to check the timing again with the strobe..I can confirm the Harmonic balance seems to be OK and not slipped
as NO 1 Cylinder at TDC with Key at 12 and timing mark at 11 o clock.
Also I will pull the push rods and see if any of them are bent...after that I might be seen running naked down the road screaming ???
again I appreciate your help and patience with me and hopefully we will get to see the old girl running again like she should
up hills and all.
cheers
ian
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Actually on re reading the last couple of posts ...thanks guys...I will check for bent push rods first and then move
on to the timing...Im hoping it will be as simple as you have indicated...Im getting pretty desperate and running
out of depth of knowledge and experience.
cheers
Ian
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Watch those harmoic ballancers, sometimes the outer can spin out of line with the inner And make it hard to do the timing properly.
-
marty is right. check the harmonic balancer is correct with TDC spark plug 1.
-
I can confirm the Harmonic balance seems to be OK and not slipped
as NO 1 Cylinder at TDC with Key at 12 and timing mark at 11 o clock.
Is there any other way I should check this?
Im still checking the rods to make sure none are bent..
Im also going to make sure the rocker saddles have the arrows pointing in the right direction
I read on old Holden that this is a common mistake too.
Ive been reading up on the Jaycar electronic CDI kit that does dual maping for dual fuels
so I can have the right advance and curve for LPG and also for Petrol...
check it out http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/archive/index.php/t-120190.html (http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/archive/index.php/t-120190.html)
Less than $100 too.. ;D
Might be the trick...once I get the basic tuning sorted out.
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Hi Fellas...
Well I think i'm diggin a deeper hole...
I re tensioned all the Rockers starting at No 1 Cylinder at TDC ..made sure with a bit of plastic hose as a feeler down the Spark plug hole and watched it peak, as I slowly rotated
the motor using the Fan and watched the timing mark on the Harmonic Balancer line up with the white line .
Then I did all the others first at 30 newton Metres (as per Work shop manual) I twirled all the push rods and noted they all seems straight...even pulled the ones
from NO 6 cylinder and checked etc..
Then I put all back and started the engine and ran till warm and re tensioned to 39 nM but observed a distinctive tapping sound...like one of them was making a small knock.
Oil started leaking on the exhaust so i put the cover back on and hoped it might go away once the oil reached all the galleries etc ....but alas ...its still there and the motor is
idling rough and lumpy...I will post a youtube clip here below,
I hooked up the timing light and noticed that the white mark would stay steady about an inch and a half the left of the White line but dis appeared every now and again
so Im wondering if its missing or something...when i increased the revs the mark would travel about 3 inches further to my left or anticlockwise. Does this seem right?
I think Im getting my self all muddled up and wonder if its time to find a mobile Mechanic or see if I can find some one else with some experience in this kind of thing.
Any Brisbane BUGA members want to come and have a look see , Im just a couple of minutes from the Shailer Park Hyperdome on the South Side
Cheers
http://youtu.be/Hjm7ufx5LXI (http://youtu.be/Hjm7ufx5LXI)
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Yep sounds like one of your lifters has air in it.
Also I had a look at the timing one as well, and you are doing those readings at idle so you will not get the timing correct - re read my post on timing.
It needs to be checked/adjusted at working RPM not Idle.
Warren
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OK, If one or more of the lifters ha air in them its should eventually come right once enough oil has splashed around right?
I guess I could pour a bit of oil down along each pushrod to ensure the lifters get a dose ...
Im probably at the stage of trying to find one of those mobile mechanics I see driving around hopefully with LPG experience.
Id hoped to have sorted it all out with everyones input and my Dads written info, I guess I was trying to follow a bit in his footsteps
but I simply don't have his mechanical knack and being a bit sentimental about it all has probably clouded my better judgement and self estimation,
as well as trying to ward of the wives concerns Im throwing good money after bad on a loosing battle....I have to admit it been one thing after another.
At some point the economic reality has to be stated..I guess thats why we see some great unfinished projects being reluctantly relinquished and sold
for a fraction of the time money and effort already invested.
Sigh ...Im getting a we bit Phiosphical for this hour of the night eh ;)
Cheers
-
Yep sounds like one of your lifters has air in it.
Also I had a look at the timing one as well, and you are doing those readings at idle so you will not get the timing correct - re read my post on timing.
It needs to be checked/adjusted at working RPM not Idle.
Warren
So when tuning the engine at working revs ie 2500 RPM do you set the advance at 6 deg for Petrol and 12 for LPG or do you add the total advance
Vacum and Mechanical and if so how do you calculate that? Sorry if Im asking basic stuff but as i guess you've already figured Im still a bit green...
cheers
-
Doh? I just re read your earlier post
In your case at working revs 2500- 3000 rpm 6 degrees befor TDC for Petrol and 12 degrees befor TDC .
I somehow got the idea from other stuff I read on line at Old Holden etc that the 6 deg and 12 degrees were set up at Idle.
for INITIAL TIMING...see http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/DISTRIBUTOR_TIMING (http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/DISTRIBUTOR_TIMING)
You can see why Im easily confused...
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OK so take a step back, relax and think about it.
It was running before.
It will run again
I just saw your post and read the oldholden stuff, I had forgotten what the actual timing was as I do mine by ear and feel.
From the chart, for a HG 6-8 degree initial, and 33 degrees at 3300 RPM
....Initial Timing, this is the mark that you have set your timing up in relation to the timing mark on the front pulley, know as the (Harmonic Balancer) some engines have their timing mark on the Flywheel.....to get Top Dead Centre,(TDC) in order to get the timing mark lined up with your number one lead point marking on the distributor ridge
The above is how to set the ballpark ignition setting STATICALY (without the Motor running) so that it will start if the motor has just been rebuilt or such.
Initial timing is just the starting point, or optimum idle speed timing - this is not as important as Total timing
However, if you can connect a vacuum gauge up, then by moving the distributor (at idle speed) so as to get the highest reading on the vacuum gauge, at that point your will be just about spot on for the Initial Timing mark, so you can then mark that NEW position and move on from there as to what timing you after.
This is for getting the initial timing with a vacuum gauge and the engine running.
And as I said - NOT AS IMPRTANT as TOTAL TIMING
Total Timing: It is the combination of the initial timing, plus mechanical timing
Centrifugal advance or sometimes called mechanical advance. It is governed by the speed of the engine (RPM)
Total timing is the main one to be concerened with.
From the chart, for a HG 6-8 degree initial, and 33 degrees at 3300 RPM
So with the engine running on petrol, and the lever in the petrol position, at idle you should see with a timing light the 6-8 degree mark line up with the indicator on the pulley/harmonic balancer.
Rev the engine up to 3300 RPM and the indicator mark should have moved to now line up with the 33 degree mark.
If not rotate the dizzy till it does.
Just add 6 degrees to those figure when running on gas with the lever in the gas position.
Warren
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Thanks Warren,
Thanks...BIG DEEP BREATH... :P I appreciate your patience...
So... Roughly how far would 33 degrees be from the main timing mark? The little indicator only is a bout an inch wide with a number o small lines and one longer line painted white. And just to be clear...treat me like a 4 year old as a I face the motor the mark should advance to the left anticlockwise is that correct?
Again many thanks much appreciated
cheers
-
Umm Geez as I have said I do mine by feel/hearing so I will have to lift the bonnet and have a look.
Also to get an idea of how far 33 degrees is a full rotation is 360 - half 180 quater 90 one quater is 45 so it is about 1/3 of that.
Warren
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Gday Fellas,
Hope your having a good weekend mines been a bit of a mixed bag.
Ive been reading up on tuning 202 motors using Vacuum gauge, tacho,
timing lights, and by ear..listening to the sound of the motor.
It was a bleak and dull day , so not wanting to mow the lawn or go
anywhere, i thought I'd have another tinker on the beddy
Well it started..surprisingly first go on LPG..and the ticking sound was gone !!
Then I tried starting on Petrol and she took ages to finally start...(thought I was gonna flatten the battery)
She was idling pretty rough, so I disconnected dads push me pull me device..loosened the retaining bolt on the
dizzy base and manually tried different positions and it died..couldn't get it going for a bit either...thought
to my self ..you idiot just leave it till you can book a mobile mechanic... ::)
After a coffee..I tried again...success...Got it idling really nice..best vacuum just over 20 hg got the timing light
and moved the dizzy till it was 6-8 degrees BTDC ..sweet...no ticking...revs smoothly all the way up to 3,000 RPM
and observed timing mark advanced about 28 degrees..nearly in line with where the belt comes off the pulley.
Then I decided to take her for a short run...but she laboured up the drive way and when I drove her around the street
to the colder-sak she stalled and I had to really nurse her with heaps of revs and felt she was struggling with loss of power
under load.
Here's a Video I took and posted on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGtVO3FDKwU&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGtVO3FDKwU&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Let me know what you reckon? ???
Im gonna see if I can get a mobile mechanic come and look at her.
cheers
-
Worby
It's certainly idling well, and you confirmed that it is advancing as well.
so of the things that are involved Air, Fuel, Timing and Spark, timing seems OK.
Air - have you replaced or removed the air filter - change in suction pressure can affect fuel/air mix.
Fuel - is the filter clean - lack of fuel will affect fuel/air mix.
Fuel pump is it supplying enough fuel ?
Carby is any of the ports /jets blocked due to gunk in the fuel?
Spark - Are the Spark plugs old/ gapped incorrectly - this can affect the combusation of the air/fuel mix.
Spark plug leads are they new and servicable ?
Points, are they Gapped correct not warn etc?
Coil is it servicable or getting enough power to give you a good white spark?
Problem solving is usually a matter of a process of allimination, checking one thing and removing it as the cause and going on to the next.
Start with the cheapest and work up.
Try timing it and Running it an gas and see if there is any difference, if it runs well on gas, but not on petrol then the carby or petrol system is faulty.
Warren
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Gday Warren,
Thanks for your comments...
The Airfilter is in place..its old but clean and free from dirt, dust or oil (im trying to get a new one,
but all the usual auto supply shops say its no longer available but Ben reckons he has one to sell me)
New spark plugs, The Colder ones designed for LPG ,I haven't adjusted the gap, so factory set...I don't have the
little special gap tool , I will get one from Repco tomorrow and try to set them as per Old Holden Notes from T and my Dad.
The fuel filter hasn't had much work since a I replaced it..but its over a year old, so I will get a new one from Repco tomorrow.
With the Engine cover off, I can clearly see the fuel pump seems to be working fine and see the fuel bubbling through the glass
bowl on the top of the fuel pump..so I m sure thats OK.
I can't really say anything about the carby or the state of the jets..I haven't touched them, Dad had them all rebuilt and set up sweet
before he died..and although its been nearly 5 years the Vehicle would have done less than 500 miles in that time.
Still I guess it could be a factor..Im not very confident to go fiddling though..I would need to get it checked out by a mechanic
or Tune Up specialist if that is believed to be the problem.
Same deal with the HEI dizzy , coils, condenser and high tension leads etc As far as I can see and observe they seem to be functioning
OK...but if this can break down when under load ...I guess they could be a candidate too...Ive noted other postings here and on old Holden
sighting faulty dizzy as cause for loss of power under load.
Ive been reading about these electronic dizzy's with dual curve or graph set up for Dual fuels
eg http://www.dualcurve.com/8790_8791_8792%20for%20Web%20viewing.pdf (http://www.dualcurve.com/8790_8791_8792%20for%20Web%20viewing.pdf)
or maybe one of these jaycar ignition kits ::)
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?CATID=&SUBCATID=&keywords=KC5247&part=&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax= (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?CATID=&SUBCATID=&keywords=KC5247&part=&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=)
http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/archive/index.php/t-120190.html (http://www.calaisturbo.com.au/archive/index.php/t-120190.html)
-
Worby
If you read those links and understand what theyre doing, well your dads setup is doing a similar thing only in a more basic way.
Warren
-
yeah I know..its pretty clever ...but its mechanical...so its prone to movement and
when its out of sync the motor doesn't perform.
Im thinking...hopefully that an electronic version with little or no moving parts might
prove to be more reliable...especially for a person as inexperienced in this sort of stuff.
I guess plug and play kind of thinking :P
Anyway..I know my dad was also looking at this as an option as I have seen some of his
threads on various forums talking about it.
I will try the filters and plug settings tomorrow and see if it makes any difference.
cheers
-
Well...seeing the end of the World didnt happen :o ...I thought I'd spend some more time tinkering on the beddie. ;D
Drove down to Supercheap, and scored a new fuel filter and a can of carby cleaner..and some new diff Oil
as the guy at Midas told me it needed changing a month ago when I got him to do my road worthy for rego.
When I got home I changed the in line fuel filter over and set about cleaning the ouside of the Carby and throttle
assembly as per the instructions...waited a minutes and did it again.
Then started the engine on petrol and took the air filter tube off and while running at high revs (1,000) I squirted
the cleaner in the throat of the carby around the butterfly and the little boy etc...stopped the motor waited a few minutes and
as per instructions did it again...put it all back together and then started the engine and adjusted the idle to about 550 RPM
and then with the aid of the timing light set the static tuning to 6 deg BTD, with the vacuum off, and then put the vacuum
tube back on the dizzy and observed the mark advance a few more degrees.
This gave the best vacuum level on the vacuum gauge too...a smidgen over 20 Hg and the motor was idling smooth as with just
a little bit of roll every now and again...
When I tried to run her on LPG she was rough as guts and wouldn't idle unless I pumped the accelerator...
So I re attached the lever mechanism dad had rigged up and pushed the dissy round for max advance and it idled better but not great
seemed like it needed more advance but it was hard over as far as it could go.
So I went back to running it on Petrol and got is sound pretty sweet.
Then I noticed and every so little flick down of the needle ever now and again in concert with the little roll or peculation of the motor...
H'mmm is this a possible tell, that one of the valves could be sticking ???
Or possibly the spark plug gaps need adjusting see scenario 11 on this useful online demo on diagnosing engine problems using
your vacuum gauge http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm) its pretty cool 8)
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Well...seeing the end of the World didnt happen :o ...I thought I'd spend some more time tinkering on the beddie. ;D
Drove down to Supercheap, and scored a new fuel filter and a can of carby cleaner..and some new diff Oil
as the guy at Midas told me it needed changing a month ago when I got him to do my road worthy for rego.
When I got home I changed the in line fuel filter over and set about cleaning the ouside of the Carby and throttle
assembly as per the instructions...waited a minutes and did it again.
Then started the engine on petrol and took the air filter tube off and while running at high revs (1,000) I squirted
the cleaner in the throat of the carby around the butterfly and the little boy etc...stopped the motor waited a few minutes and
as per instructions did it again...put it all back together and then started the engine and adjusted the idle to about 550 RPM
and then with the aid of the timing light set the static tuning to 6 deg BTD, with the vacuum off, and then put the vacuum
tube back on the dizzy and observed the mark advance a few more degrees.
This gave the best vacuum level on the vacuum gauge too...a smidgen over 20 Hg and the motor was idling smooth as with just
a little bit of roll every now and again...
When I tried to run her on LPG she was rough as guts and wouldn't idle unless I pumped the accelerator...
So I re attached the lever mechanism dad had rigged up and pushed the dissy round for max advance and it idled better but not great
seemed like it needed more advance but it was hard over as far as it could go.
So I went back to running it on Petrol and got it sounding pretty sweet.
Then I noticed and every so little flick down of the needle ever now and again in concert with the little roll or peculation of the motor...
H'mmm is this a possible tell, that one of the valves could be sticking ???
Or possibly the spark plug gaps need adjusting see scenario 11 on this useful online demo on diagnosing engine problems using
your vacuum gauge http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm) its pretty cool 8)
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I read through all your posts Worby and I reckon I have an idea of what it could be due to my own past experience.I had an old hq that would do exactly the same thing. it would idle sweet but as soon as you tried to put any load on it, it would break down and stumble just like yours is doing. It turned out that the problem was the positive wire going to the coil was worn half through and not flowing enough current to the coil.
So I suggest checking the power to the coil, firstly check to make sure your getting full battery voltage to the positive terminal on the coil. you should be getting atleast 13 volts there when the motor is running. The other thing is changing the coil out for another if you have a spare as these can wear out too.
good luck.
cheers,
roy
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Gday Roy,
Yeah Im getting pretty desperate..tried just about everything else :-\ ..i've been thinking if maybe I should look
at the electrics...so tomorrow I will test the voltage to the coil and check the wiring..maybe even replace
any thing that look dodgy I have seen the new Bosh Coils in Supercheap around $60-$80 is there a particular
size or out put I should be looking for to match the HEI Bosh Dizzy?
The Other thing Im toying with..is to look at changing the head over to a High compression head eg 173
that has been set up for LPG with the hardened Valve guides etc and see if that not only helps my current
woes but also give me a little extra poke ;) (I will be talking to Rothu about this option)
Cheers
Ian
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yeah ian definately check out everything with your ignition electrics and repair any suspect looking wiring, it could be as simple as a dodgy crimp terminal somewhere in the coil relay setup.
I am using the bosch HEC 716 transistor coil with my HEi dizzy and it works perfectly.
If you put a higher comp head on and your problem is ignition related it will make it worse, as the higher compression will put more load on your ignition system.
Not to say dont do it as i reckon the 173 head you are talking about is a great idea. but you need to fix your problem first.
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I agree with Mr Whippy. As stated, sparks can break down under load, and this often manifests as the high tension taking a short cut.
If you haven't already, check all the plastic bits, and plugs for cracks, dirt, or signs of tracking. Under the distributor cap is a common one.
Often I have found a problem by watching the motor at night; any leakage will show up as blue sparks...quite clearly.
Another possibility is the leads could be cross firing between themselves. This would be apparent with the night test, but make sure they are not touching each other.
Another one that had me fooled for ages was a faulty ignition switch that came and went. You could try shorting that out.
Your problems definitely sound electrical to me.
Good luck!
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Thanks fellas...I will have a look at it today...after I mow the Lawn as the missus is complaining about
the jungle out the back ;)
I just dont understand how come everything was work 100% until the motor blew the gasket and started
over heating and lossing coolant out the exhaust...no water in the oil..no milky tell tale...so after I replaced
the head gasket everything decided to go pear shaped !!! Its really strange.
Thinking about it some more I did have an embarrassing incident before I did the gasket change over.
The battery was flat so I did a swap from my other vehicle and silly stupid me i reversed the polarity and in 3 seconds
cooked the wiring from the alternator through to the starter solenoid...what a mess!!! :-[
I carefully unwound the electrical tape around the harness and replaced the entire wires good as new...perhaps
I may have done some more damage to the coil side of things..its seems ok and normal looking at it but I will
get a new multimeter from Supercheap and check the voltage.
Cheers
Ian
-
I just dont understand how come everything was work 100% until the motor blew the gasket and started
over heating and lossing coolant out the exhaust...no water in the oil..no milky tell tale...so after I replaced
the head gasket everything decided to go pear shaped !!! Its really strange.
Thinking about it some more I did have an embarrassing incident before I did the gasket change over.
The battery was flat so I did a swap from my other vehicle and silly stupid me i reversed the polarity and in 3 seconds
cooked the wiring from the alternator through to the starter solenoid...what a mess!!! :-[
I think you might have answered your own question here, GL on finding the issue Ian, I think your on the right track now.
-
Yes this information, puts a whole new light on the matter... anything else we should know about... :D I agree with MW I think it might pay you to investagate in this direction.........
-
the easy fix would be chev it ;D
-
Well I cleaned all the connections to the coil and made sure they were all solid and
electrically sound.
Then when tried to start the motor the battery went flat...so Ive Got it charging now
and will try later this evening when its dark so i can observe if there is any arching over
or such.
here is a couple of pics of the positive and negative side of the coil.
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31913&g2_serialNumber=2)
and
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31918&g2_serialNumber=2)
I will report later on how I get on and any discoveries or progress I make. ::)
cheers
Ian
-
:-\
I think you may have destroyed the battery as well :-\
-
Naa the battery is ok ,I forgot to connect one of the wires to the negative terminal of the coil and thats why
it wouldn't start. ??? doh !!!
Anyway ran the motor in the dark and absolutely no sparks or corona or anything to suspect any faulty high tension
leads breaking down.
next i hooked up a brand new multimeter and on ignition 11.9 volts at the positive terminal of the coil rev the engine
to 2 , 3 thousand rpm and the volts stayed the same it flashed 15 18 but i suspect its breaking down under load.
could it be the condenser? or something inside the HEI dizzy circuitry? Or Just the coil breaking down? H'mmm ???
will investigate further more tomorrow.....I just don"t want to buy a new Coil if its not the problem.
cheers
Ian
-
Ive been trying to find out more info on the coil and Bosh HEI combo reading the OLD HOLDEN sites etc
cant find any specific info on the voltage readings I should be getting at the + side of the coil.
Any of you fellas have some more info?
-
11.9 volts seems a bit low. Have you checked the voltage across the battery with the engine running? should be around 13-14 volts.
I found some info on the hei ignition system on old holden. even has a troubleshooting guide .
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Bosch_HEI
-
Well taking on board some of the advice and suggestions I measured the Coil as per this website
http://waywardgarage.com/129/testing-an-automotive-12-volt-ignition-coil/ (http://waywardgarage.com/129/testing-an-automotive-12-volt-ignition-coil/)
I also measured the voltage and was disappointed to see its below the 13+ volts that I have been told to expect.
heres a video i took with my iphone Im using a brand new auto multimeter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF94t0s2r0c&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF94t0s2r0c&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
and it seems my Bosh Coil is not within the specs illustrated see here
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31939&g2_serialNumber=2)
So I have posted some pics of the old coil being tested and then the New Coil I purchased from Auto barn its a high performance
MSD Blaster unit...
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31924&g2_serialNumber=2)
Here is the original unit's Primary coil being tested
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31929&g2_serialNumber=2)
here is the original secondary coil being tested seems to be low compared to the 10,000 ohms its supposed to be.
So I replaced this unit with a NEW MSD Blaster unit from the USA @ $109.
And to my surprise the new unit didnt read to spec either !!! ???
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31934&g2_serialNumber=2)
here above is the reading for the Primary coil on the NEW MSD unit. (same as the old Bosh unit)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=31944&g2_serialNumber=2)
and above you can see the New MSD unit is even lower than the Old bosh unit and well below the specs of the web article what the ??
The new unit works fine BUT with such low voltage I'm wondering if I have other electrical issues..the battery could be on the way out
although the projectar battery monitor says its OK...
H'mm Could be the alternator is not doing its job properly...will read up on how to test that tonight and look at it tomorrow.. (long weekend so that good)
Other than that I'm thinking that there could be a leak of juice from the battery or maybe the wires from the battery and alternator could be in bad shape and posing too much resistance and thus loosing power at the coil.
The more I look the more I get so many other options as whats causing the problem...sigh owning an old bedford can be stressful eh?
Cheers
Ian
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I think I would try hot wiring it.
A fresh wire from the battery direct to the coil.
Also make sure that the earthing is working well; maybe a wire back to the battery.
That should tell you if the primary circuit is faulty or not.
PS Don't leave it on for long without the engine running, as I don't know if that would do damage or not. (same as leaving the ignition on)
I love these mysteries....when they are someone else's.
-
H'mm Could be the alternator is not doing its job properly...will read up on how to test that tonight and look at it tomorrow.. (long weekend so that good)
Cheers
Ian
The old fashioned way is to turn the headlights on and give it a rev, you will see them improve ;)
-
I had another thought.
It could be that you have a leak in the inlet manifold gasket.
That may get worse as the engine heats up and the studs stretch.
If using the choke makes it run a bit better, then it is looking more likely.
The manifold nuts need to be re tightened after the engine heats up if the gasket has been replaced.
PS I have just reread the whole thread. Two others have suggested a manifold leak, but there is no mention of any action on this.
I do wonder if we are getting off track by looking for the difficult first.
-
G'day Jeff,
Good thought..I'm willing to try anything...I will check it out tomorrow,
I would have thought that a leaking inlet manifold would have shown up
on the vacuum gauges :-\
Any ways ...I will retention the studs tomorrow after I warm the
engine and see if it makes any difference.
I will also test the headlights while the motor is running and see if they
brighten with the revs.
Cheers
ian
-
Ive also gone back over a number of comments in this thread including some of the
discussions my late father was having with another Bedford Motorhome user in the
UK who had similar problems (although his seemed definitely related to leaking manifolds)
see this thread if your interested ::)
http://oldholden.com/node/27503#comment-110045 (http://oldholden.com/node/27503#comment-110045)
any way... I had another look at this attached article on running dual fuels i.e. Petrol and LPG
http://www.acl.com.au/web/acl00056.nsf/0/359683e8a538a3e64a2566c0007bb33e?OpenDocument (http://www.acl.com.au/web/acl00056.nsf/0/359683e8a538a3e64a2566c0007bb33e?OpenDocument)
It seems that my dads mechanical lever that changes the advance from 6 degrees to 12 degrees
only really helps the engine at low RPM because according to the article LPG requires less advance
at higher RPMs so the lever is really only a compromise as best...the best thing would be to invest in a dual
graph distributor...like the Jaycar electronic Kit one mentioned earlier in this post.
Or an expensive USA MSD electronic distributor with Dual curve settings.
In the meantime I figure its best to decide what fuel I will run on most and tune for that.
(Most likely LPG as its cheaper and has the higher octane so theoretically more power :)
Something to think about for sure... ;)
cheers
Ian
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check alternator by first checking voltage across battery with engine off. then start engine and measure again. if your alternator is charging then the reading should be considerably higher even at idle (13-14 volts)
when measuring the + voltage to your coil, ground the negative somewhere on the block and not the negative side of the coil. then the meter wont fluctuate like it is
-
YEah I will check the battery and the alternator tomorrow as you have suggested.
The negative side of the meter is connected to the engine Block near the earth strap
so I dont know why I get the intermitant or flickering readings ??? go figure...its a mystery :-\
cheers
ian
-
The negative side of the meter is connected to the engine Block near the earth strap
so I dont know why I get the intermitant or flickering readings ??? go figure...its a mystery :-\
cheers
ian
hmm yeah okay ill try and check mine in the next few days to see if it does the same. will let you know
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Hey fellas
Thought I should give you all a bit of an update.
I seem to have resolved the problems with the van now performing like her old self.
Thanks for everyones input and continued interest.
As they say in show biz "Timing is every thing" and it seemed this was the issue with my beddie
getting the timing right for LPG and then for ULP.
I have taken her for a drive and got to test the bag tent I scored on ebay for only $400
see the photos below
Next I need to source and fit a new balljoint for the front left wheel assembly any one know
the best place to purchase these?
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=32340&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=32345&g2_serialNumber=2)
(http://www.buga.com.au/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=32350&g2_serialNumber=2)
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Hey Worby love that tent is it free standing or do you have to attach it to the van I want something like that so I can leave erected at caravan parks so no one pinches my spot when I go out sightseeing in the camper It's a pain in the ass when you come back & someone has nicked your spot Cheers Reid
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Looking for an annexe myself - they used to be called van tents and with the setup I used to have you could mount the kitchen on the cargo door and cook in the "tunnel".
http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=8&g2_itemId=23555 (http://www.buga.com.au/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=8&g2_itemId=23555)
As restoreid says they're ideal for marking your territory ;D and leaving some stuff in while sightseeing.
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This annex tent Is known as a bag tent because it is stored in a long vinyl bag that is attached in the channel on the side of the van.
So you can't leave it un attached to the van...sorry, :-\
Cheers
Ian
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This is where they are for sale on eBay
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-5-BLUE-HORSE-FLOAT-CARAVAN-CAMPER-ANNEXE-AWNING-TENT-/230649352660?pt=AU_Sports_Horse_Trailers_Floats&hash=item35b3c5d1d4#ht_12703wt_990 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-5-BLUE-HORSE-FLOAT-CARAVAN-CAMPER-ANNEXE-AWNING-TENT-/230649352660?pt=AU_Sports_Horse_Trailers_Floats&hash=item35b3c5d1d4#ht_12703wt_990)
Cheers
Ian
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Check out this video clip showing how quick easy it goes up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SW_-5aQtSw&feature=youtube_gdata_player. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SW_-5aQtSw&feature=youtube_gdata_player.) :-X
Enjoy
Ian