BUGA Community
Technical => Miscellaneous Technical => Topic started by: BusyKiwi on March 11, 2011, 06:10:46 PM
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I went to book a trailer today (to take custom van down to van nats) but the guy at the hire place would only hire me the trailer if I took insurance out with it (only $32) because the tare weight of the van and the fact it doesn't have a chassis ....
So was trying to do some maths but got a bit stuck.
In the bedford books it says kerb weight is about 1222 kg, gvm weight is 2240 kg,
My standard van has the V6 commodore running gears and mags so add about 300 kg, trailer is 800 kg so that would put it over GVM weight, then I found another bit of bedford text saying "total with trailer: 3336 kg" but I'm guessing thats un-braked
The custom van at a guess would be heavier than standard as well, even with the chop and drop, so at a guess maybe 1800kg ? (big heavy cast iron V8 and stuff)
So if the custom van is 1800 + trailer 800 = 2600 kg (2.5 ton) and the tow vehicle about 1500 kg am I asking for trouble?
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Yep I think you might be , got many hills cause once you got a bit off speed up your gonna have trouble holding back and then your rear end is gonna want to walk the trailer side ways....
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GVM is Gross Vehicle Mass, This is only applicable if you put the custom vanin the back of the standard van
Look for the GCM (Gross Combination Mass) and go from there. I can't find my manual at the moment but from some of the documents online i reckon the GCM could be around 3.5tonne
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Are the trailer brakes electric and do you have a control unit fitted?
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one main hill to worry about (The bombays), going down the hill on the way there is more of a concern than going up it, and going up it is worse on the way back
I'm thinking the "total with trailer: 3336 kg" is the GCM but car makers can't see how a trailer is loaded, if the weight isn't over the front axle ... trailer sway
the trailer brakes are just the standard hydraulic system
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The towbar will also have a rating of the total weight it can tow and also i think its called the tounge weight, which is how much weight can be put onto the towball.
Ie i remember out quad bike had a towing weight of 300kg and the tongue weight was only 50kg. So if my dad sat in the trailer it'd be ok, but if he stood directly on the towball it would be overloaded
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Hey Busy, i'm going to spam your post with a whole bunch of replies as im now on a mission to find an exact maximum of what i'm able to tow.
Found this
Maximum Trailer Mass
Throughout Australia, the allowable maximum mass for the trailer is either the capacity of the tow vehicle's towing attachment or the towing limit specified by the vehicle manufacturer for the towing vehicle, whichever is the least.
OR
If the vehicle's manufacturer has not made a recommendation as to the towing mass, then the following rules apply. A vehicle may tow a laden trailer of up to one and a half times the unladen mass of the tow vehicle, provided that the towbar is rated accordingly and the trailer is fitted with brakes that comply with the requirements stipulated in the Australian Design Rule ADR38.
If the trailer is not fitted with brakes, then the maximum mass must not exceed the unladen mass of the motor vehicle. The unladen mass of the vehicle can be found in the vehicles handbook, or check with your dealer. All trailers with a GTM exceeding 750kgs must have brakes.
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According to the Australian Design Rules, all trailers over 750kgs GTM (irrespective of the towing capacity or unladen mass of the tow vehicle) must have an effective brake system fitted. All brakes must be operable from the driver's seat of the tow vehicle except for over-ride brakes.
The minimum braking system required for a trailer or caravan depends on its type and weight, as well as the weight of the tow vehicle:
Up to 750kgs GTM: No brakes are required.
751-2,000kgs GTM: There must be a braking system on the wheels of at least one axle and over-ride brakes are permitted. However, for caravans exceeding 1000kgs, independent brakes (electric brakes are the most common form) are strongly recommended.
Over 2,000kgs GTM: A brake system operating on all wheels is required. The system must be capable of automatically activating should the trailer become detached from the tow vehicle. Under these circumstances the brakes must remain applied for at least 15 minutes. These 'break away' systems are compulsory on all trailers over 2,000kgs GTM.
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So just quickly, cuz i can't get to my van and check the weights i'd say:
If your tow van weighs 1222, you can only tow 750kg unbraked
or 1222x1.5 = 1833kg with normal override brakes (You might get away with towing 2ton if your van weighs 1333kg or more as 1333x1.5=2000kg)
Anything over 2tonne trailer+load will need electric brakes and cops will probably check this before anything else
And 1 last thing, if your "total with trailer is 3336kg", and tow-van + loaded trailer (1222+ 2000) = 3222, you can only have 114kg in the towvan, practically empty.
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Now i know why i hated mathematics. lol ;) ;D ;D ;D
george.
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hey arron can u check the distance a rubic cube turns from start to finish for me? ;-)
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hey arron can u check the distance a rubic cube turns from start to finish for me? ;-)
i only do rubiks one way, about 9 little pots of paint + 1 paintbrush
I love maths i don't know why. Maybe because you can't argue with it
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what are the other 3 pots for ??? there's only 6 sides to a cube
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so by this "If the vehicle's manufacturer has not made a recommendation as to the towing mass, then the following rules apply. A vehicle may tow a laden trailer of up to one and a half times the unladen mass of the tow vehicle, provided that the towbar is rated accordingly and the trailer is fitted with brakes that comply with the requirements stipulated in the Australian Design Rule ADR38."
even though its a modified vehicle the handbook weights should still apply I guess, so as long as the tow bar is rated high enough the tow van can tow one and a half times its own weight, or are they saying the loaded weight the tow vehicle can carry.
If it was just one and a half times it should be fine (ish)
we don't have your strict brake rules here, the old coupling brake is standard fixture, break away and electric brakes are merely add-ons, though they should be standard.
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what are the other 3 pots for ??? there's only 6 sides to a cube
dammit, i never was good at rubiks, but like i said you can't argue with maths
it'd definably be 1.5x the unloaded tow vehicle weight
1.5 times the loaded vehicle weight is 1.5X2240 = 2688kg in tow, plus the 2240 for the van and payload = a grand total of 4928, pretty much 5 tonnes, too much
and a lot of utes have a payload well under the tonne, maybe 700kg, so if you 1.5x that its only 1050kg. Like the trailer and a bale of straw
as for the listed weight of your van and actual weight, your guess is as good as mine
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ah i just realised, 9 squares on each side of a rubiks cube! thats where i got 9 from
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just get the weight balanced well an go reeeeal slow busy dont go out of second an give yourself at least a week to get there ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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When I was younger (or maybe it was when my balls were bigger) I never worried about stuff like this.
Example, when I was racing stock cars I towed it behind a HQ ute (which I think is about 1 tonne), so holden ute loaded with 10 + wheels (with steel centres), loaded tool box, jacks, spares ... towing a tandem braked trailer with the stockcar (car was about 1400 kg). It towed well, mind you I had a 350 V8 in the ute and would stop, just not in a hurry lol
The balanced weight could also be an issue, I know as long as the most weight is over the front axle its fine, but being mid mounted engine - engine is in the middle so trans is in back half am thinking the van could be rear heavy, or 45/55.
Can't put the van on backwards, the trailer is 2 metres between the wheel arches which gives me 10mm each side at the front
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Can't put the van on backwards, the trailer is 2 metres between the wheel arches which gives me 10mm each side at the front
Was wondering about that. My van will be very close if not over 2m back and front and i'm having fun trying to find a trailer to fit it on, and also i guess, a vehicle to tow it with.
I'm hoping the paint and panel guy will be cool about me driving the van to his shop, and then stripping it in his yard. he does his work, then i reassemble it in his yard before driving it home
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??? can u not winch it on backwards busy?? or is the rear wider than the front, if its the tyre width , then just stick some thinner stocks on to roll it on n off n change them onsite, lateral suggestion i know, but sometimes thats the way you gotta go.. bro ;) how many kliks you got to do, one way?
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Worse case busy you may have to send it down on a tow truck, depends on how far you are going.
george.
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great minds think alike george ;) ;D ;D was why i asked the klikage, was gonna be next suggest... but then the dollar count starts climbin, less you can self hire... ,can one tow vehicle to vehicle in kiwi??
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Thats another good idea skip, hire a trayback truck for 1 van and tow the second on the trailer behind the trayback, depends on how much you really want both vans there. Or another solution, thats way out there ;) you could beef up the tow van to what it needs to tow the custom. Like i said out there, time and cash wise. ;D ??? ??? ??? :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) hhhhmmmm thinking thinking, or hows this busy, you could see if they would move the show to your place, then you can just park in the drive. ;) ;) Good luck with that mate.. ;D ;D ;D
george.
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Maybe just finish the custom and drive it there under its own steam?
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the van is 2010mm between rear flares, bottom of flares is flush with side skirts ... can only go on forward
Is a 2 hour trip, so 160k's ?
vehicle to vehicle ? line towing, like with a tow rope? the missus wont even drive my standard van (is to big)
would cost an arm and a leg to get it towed down there, trailer is going to cost me $80 a day (5 days = $400)
I did think about just driving the custom one down but if I got pulled over the fines would be worse than getting it towed down
At this point I think I'll beef up the tow bar, replace the bolts with new high tensile bolts and maybe add a couple of safety chains from chassis frame to tow bar for piece of mind
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our driving unreg vehcile is $580 and you can still drive it home but if you got caught on the way down that would really suck! not worth the chance.
dont you have a mate with a car trailer?
ben
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I just ring up and get a permit $20 each way or 48hr
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Talked to my uncle David, only got flat bed trucks these days, no trailers as they don't use them any more, sorry
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Well the trailer idea might be a no go anyways. Went and measured it up, the van will fit - just (10mm spare each side) but can't get the van on the trailer far enough to get the weight in front of the front wheels, the engine is on the front axle which means to much weight at the rear. stupid mid mount #@*$@#
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Thanks for asking Bas
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you need to own your own trailer busy so you can customize it for your vans.. its too hard to find trailers that are ok with beddys.. especially custom ones!
ben
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vehicle to vehicle ? line towing, like with a tow rope? the missus wont even drive
no would never suggest with a rope :o toooo scary by half... :o was thinking more along the lines of a solid tow bar would be much saferer, no chance of ramming tow vehicle , but it would still need to regoed to be on road..ja?? 48 hour rego pass may be the go.. just say its goin there for final work then back to where you live for rdworthy on mon....or.... maybe swap rego plates if you have a regod beddy... ::) ( or someone you know has ) ::)... tch tch tch who said that ??
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have seen cartrailers that have no sides, just a low tiebar running along each side, would you be able to put it on backwards then busy??
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how about make an 'A' frame, then good for all beddies.
Dennis
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Good call benny, if we are going to build custom rides, the ease of a custom trailer is a must, built to suite a beddy would solve all busy's problems. I had one built for my bobcat, have sold that no. Hey busy, it may cost a few coins to start with, but by the sounds of things it would never sit idle. To late for this show, but maybe down the track.
george.
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A frame maybe the go hippo, then with the beddy loaded on it ,busy could rightly name it the A team ::) ::) ::)
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the A-Frame wont work as the front of the custom van is to low, well is 150mm off the ground but spoiler is way lower than the front beam.
I would love a trailer but have no where to put it. I already have 2 vans, motorbike and girlfriends car here, plus another bedford shell at neighbours workshop.
And there is a guy on trade me selling a flat deck CF and another selling 5 bedford vans as a lot ... WHEN i win lotto i'm buying a HUGE farm, the missus can be the crazy cat lady and I'll be the crazy bedford guy
Plan E is to buy a trailer, use it and then sell it straight after, but again trying to find one it will fit on. No time to build one